The Boeing statement seems to be particularly peculiar, as if the management are still living in a cloud.
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Originally Posted by Loose rivets
(Post 10658897)
But WHY?! Just what drove him to say that? Re the 1-11. We had a week's differences course just between two very similar marks. The MAX possibly didn't need a full type rating course, but 90 on an iPad? What was in the minds of people that though that was a good idea?
It just keeps coming. That seems to be the only significant difference to the handling of the plane and, if it wasn't discovered or appropriately evaluated before shipping the planes to customers, it would never be added to training. |
Originally Posted by fgrieu
(Post 10658930)
Here are the 117 pages of Boeing internal communications, in their public (redacted) form, with OCR to facilitate search.
There are more gems beyond the now famous one (on page 27) I count 8 references to Jedi mind trick. Lucasfilm should sue! |
Originally Posted by MechEngr
(Post 10659071)
Unless something specific to an AoA sensor failure leading to a crash was being specifically discussed as a training item, MCAS-specific training is unlikely to have made any difference to the accident flights. There was no difference in concept for the behavior of trim runaway and no inkling about the potential adverse effect of MCAS on trim.
That seems to be the only significant difference to the handling of the plane and, if it wasn't discovered or appropriately evaluated before shipping the planes to customers, it would never be added to training. It's sounding like there's a culture of "make it work nicely in the sims", that the sims didn't need to know about MCAS. (software engineer) |
Originally Posted by Skipness One Foxtrot
(Post 10658942)
Wasn't the British Midland crash at Kegworth a then new B737 model (the -400) where the crew had only had an OHP session to get to know the differences between the new -400 vs the -300, and it was the failure of this assumption that was one of the holes which drove the decision to shut down the wrong (working) engine? There's way less difference between a -300 and a -400 than between an NG and a MAX surely?
I flew both the B Midland display EIS and the newer display around the time of the BD Kegworth - for another airline. The differences were very small. The reason that the BD crashed was similar to what happened recently. Complete failure of crew CRM and standard procedures. The dead engine was not identified and the wrong one shut down, not because of display issues, nor has been quoted due to the design of the air conditioning system giving rise to fumes, but because there was a rush to identify the failed engine and the correct procedures were not followed. There was no double check by both pilots of the failed engine 1 or 2 . Left or Right. The FO said when asked by P1 which engine was in trouble "Its the left.....its the right" from memory. The response was "shut it down". Not direct quotes but that was the sort or CRM at work that evening. Just found actual CVR.....AAIB report "From the CVR it was apparent that the first indication of any problem with the aircraft was as it approached its cleared flight level, when for a brief period, sounds of `vibration' or `rattling' could be heard on the flight deck. There was an exclamation and the first officer commented that they had 'GOT A FIRE', the autopilot disconnect audio warning was then heard, and the first officer stated 'ITS A FIRE COMING THROUGH'. The commander then asked 'WHIXH ONE IS IT?', to which the first officer replied, 'ITS THE LE..ITS THE RIGHT ONE'. The commander then said 'OKAY, THROTTLE >> IT << BACK'. After that it was game over except that there were numerous further chances to save the day right up to short final when the mistake became apparent. That's what I remember, but then I am an old timer retired guy. R Guy |
Originally Posted by blind pew
(Post 10658767)
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-51058929
From previously redacted Boeing internal comms. Would you put your family on a Max.......NO. Designed by clowns overseen by monkeys...bit harsh. |
FAA OVERSIGHT
On this issue or lack of FAA oversight, it is important to remember that in general the manufacturer and good airlines have generally had higher standards than the regulator. Now I agree that there seems to be evidence that Boeing have dropped the ball here and moving HQ to Chicago was a defining moment. But when I flew test flights at Boeing over many years on 737-400/ 757. / 767. /744 The Boeing company showed nothing but the highest regard for errors we would pick up and they would be fixed right away and the production line amended if necessary. That was then - 1988 -2003 and yes, things seem to have changed , which if so, is massively regrettable. In UK the CAA was our regulator and generally the company I flew for knew far more about the job of flying safely than the regulator for the obvious reason that we were all active training managers/pilots flying hundreds of hours per annum and setting the bar really high, while the regulators were generally retired pilots from a variety of airlines and different former types, with little recency (a few times per year was common). We also took the CAA requirements as a minimum standard and aimed far higher than that. As the man said "if you think safety is expensive, try having an accident or two!" So true as we now see with Boeing and two MAX down. Now that only works of course if the company is setting standards way higher than those actually required as a minimum. If you become a rogue company or just simply, like some start-ups, completely ignorant of how to operate safely, then the regulator becomes your fallback. And that is very bad indeed because it assumes that the regulator is right up there with the best. And we see where our financial regulators got us in 2007-1010. The worst case then is a poor airline being regulated by a poor regulator. So the idea of the FAA delegating certain roles to the manufacture is not intrinsically flawed because it has always been there and worked. I have to agree with those here who say that the standards we are seeing do not appear to support a continuation of that sort of relationship and a lot has to change. The regulator needs to get regulating and the company has to raise its own bar. Between the two, we achieve the best possible outcome. R Guy |
it is important to remember that in general the manufacturer and good airlines have generally had higher standards than the regulator. Through Delegation the [authority] has access to both a broader range and increased number of qualified certification personnel. The taxpayer simply could not afford to employ enough FAA staff to carry out all of these duties, in the same way that the taxpayer or pilot community could not afford for the FAA to employ enough pilot examiners to examine every pilot candidate, the FAA delegates that to pilot examiners, whom they trust to exercise that delegation diligently. As in some many things in aviation, it's about trust. |
Originally Posted by Skipness One Foxtrot
(Post 10658942)
Wasn't the British Midland crash at Kegworth a then new B737 model (the -400) where the crew had only had an OHP session to get to know the differences between the new -400 vs the -300, and it was the failure of this assumption that was one of the holes which drove the decision to shut down the wrong (working) engine? There's way less difference between a -300 and a -400 than between an NG and a MAX surely?
AAIB Report on Kegworth Crash |
I noted in those exchanges between Boeing employees that two of the authors names were not obscured.
I hope that because those documents have been published and are now publicly viewable that the two concerned do not suffer as a result, e.g. present or any future employment? |
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Prior to 1972 certification in the UK was delegated to the Air Registration Board that was independent of the Civil Aviation Authority. It could be the case that such a board needs to be set up again in the UK and probably in the USA as well.
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Originally Posted by yoganmahew
(Post 10659081)
Is that because the simulator did not (still does not?) accurately reflect how the plane flies?
It's sounding like there's a culture of "make it work nicely in the sims", that the sims didn't need to know about MCAS. (software engineer) There was some suggestion that the NG simulator cannot simulate an AoA sensor reporting an incorrect value. I expect it can simulate a case where it no longer provides any reading, but that wasn't the Max failure mode problem. |
Sorry, but this pretty well informed SLF thinks that if you read only the exchange that starts on page 51 of the messages, about jammed elevator without DLC, ("you will crash 3-4 times until you kinda get the hang of it")- paraphrase-
Boeing people said this!!! And then go do all they can to prevent having FAA do any flight tests of the Level B training, so stuff like that would not get found out. this is exactly why I came here in the first place, to find out, How bad is it (the MAX in general, not just MCAS). This is bad. The plane should never fly again. Full stop. And a whole bunch of people should be in jail; this seems worse than VW. Like I said, sorry, but I'm just quoting Boeing, and pointing out their own descriptions of their own actions. |
Originally Posted by Pilot DAR
(Post 10658951)
The FAA has delegated some of this service to specified employees of Boeing, who, in that role, act on behalf of the FAA. The previous method was FAA selected Boeing employees that reported directly to the FAA (an unfiltered system). |
Originally Posted by retired guy
(Post 10659147)
FAA OVERSIGHT
On this issue or lack of FAA oversight, it is important to remember that in general the manufacturer and good airlines have generally had higher standards than the regulator. Now I agree that there seems to be evidence that Boeing have dropped the ball here and moving HQ to Chicago was a defining moment. But when I flew test flights at Boeing over many years on 737-400/ 757. / 767. /744 The Boeing company showed nothing but the highest regard for errors we would pick up and they would be fixed right away and the production line amended if necessary. That was then - 1988 -2003 and yes, things seem to have changed , which if so, is massively regrettable. In UK the CAA was our regulator and generally the company I flew for knew far more about the job of flying safely than the regulator for the obvious reason that we were all active training managers/pilots flying hundreds of hours per annum and setting the bar really high, while the regulators were generally retired pilots from a variety of airlines and different former types, with little recency (a few times per year was common). We also took the CAA requirements as a minimum standard and aimed far higher than that. As the man said "if you think safety is expensive, try having an accident or two!" So true as we now see with Boeing and two MAX down. Now that only works of course if the company is setting standards way higher than those actually required as a minimum. If you become a rogue company or just simply, like some start-ups, completely ignorant of how to operate safely, then the regulator becomes your fallback. And that is very bad indeed because it assumes that the regulator is right up there with the best. And we see where our financial regulators got us in 2007-1010. The worst case then is a poor airline being regulated by a poor regulator. So the idea of the FAA delegating certain roles to the manufacture is not intrinsically flawed because it has always been there and worked. I have to agree with those here who say that the standards we are seeing do not appear to support a continuation of that sort of relationship and a lot has to change. The regulator needs to get regulating and the company has to raise its own bar. Between the two, we achieve the best possible outcome. R Guy |
I remember discussions in one or more of the closed MAX threads, about Synthetic Airspeed, and how it could be used to supply a third airspeed reference for comparison. Well right here on the first page of the emails, we find that the technical pilots had a problem with that:
As I pointed out in the telecom today, an introduction of synthetic airspeed to the MAX would drastically alter this Critical Action Memory Item Non-Normal Checklist, If synthetic airspeed is standard as opposed to an option, it would likely jeopardize the Program directive to maintain Level B training for our customers. The doc marked Boeing Only has questions that we plan to ask the no-RCAS group about their expectations for any alerting that they felt might have helped in the events. It is Boeing Only because the answers they provide might show a significant deviation from the current RCAS design, and we don't want to indicate to the FAA that our design conflicts with pilot expectations. |
The FAA's type certification process is fundamentally dependent on the applicant not lying and not misleading the FAA's technical staff. It is not designed to, and is largely incapable of, dealing with a dishonest applicant. Trust once destroyed is not easily regained. Fool me once ...
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This is going to have very far reaching repercussions in the industry.
It's things like this that mean I have no interest in signing any document other than as the author. |
Well, here it is, 04.50 AM and I've read through the interchange of messages. Oh, MY!
I sensed, frustration, downright anger, bewilderment, logic at a brick wall and not least of all, tiredness. (goodness knows what he did to himself while off with family. ) Will big corporations never learn about tiredness? It cost American companies $117.000.000.000 in IIRC 2017 Big university studies. A lot of men denying themselves sleep WILL produce substandard results. I have the publication ISP. Fear and overwork will produce . . . well, a MAX? and a lot of other tidying up to do. Treat tiredness with the mos routinely sold seeping aid in North America, and you'll start to kill people. It'll be hard to stop as the money involved is right up there in the big league. A different subject, but the death toll is stunning. I'll look up the data on the morrow. Not so dramatic as an aircrash, but a lot more consistent. |
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