B787 O2 supply
Boeing whistleblower raises doubts over 787 oxygen system
By Theo Leggett Business correspondent, BBC Newscopyright BoeingA Boeing whistleblower has claimed that passengers flying on board the company's 787 Dreamliner could be left without life-saving oxygen if the cabin were to suffer a sudden decompression. John Barnett, a former quality control engineer at the company, says he organised tests which suggested that up to a quarter of the oxygen systems used on the aircraft could be faulty and might not operate when needed. https://www.bbc.com/news/business-50293927 |
Originally Posted by Longtimer
(Post 10611799)
Boeing whistleblower raises doubts over 787 oxygen system
By Theo Leggett Business correspondent, BBC Newscopyright BoeingA Boeing whistleblower has claimed that passengers flying on board the company's 787 Dreamliner could be left without life-saving oxygen if the cabin were to suffer a sudden decompression. John Barnett, a former quality control engineer at the company, says he organised tests which suggested that up to a quarter of the oxygen systems used on the aircraft could be faulty and might not operate when needed. https://www.bbc.com/news/business-50293927 |
Nope, 787 uses O2 bottles both for flight deck and cabin oxygen systems. Each 3 seat group shares one oxygen bottle in the bulkhead overhead, fired by a pyrotechnic valve when operated. These valves, by definition single use, can not be tested, and are the source of failures.
|
Originally Posted by Flight Alloy
(Post 10611812)
Nope, 787 uses O2 bottles both for flight deck and cabin oxygen systems. Each 3 seat group shares one oxygen bottle in the bulkhead overhead, fired by a pyrotechnic valve when operated. These valves, by definition single use, can not be tested, and are the source of failures.
|
Indeed they were, as per the article, and 25% were shown to fail. A problem which the whistleblower reported to the FAA after Boeing didn't do anything about it. And neither did the FAA. The plot thickens.
|
Originally Posted by Flight Alloy
(Post 10611812)
787 uses O2 bottles both (....) , fired by a pyrotechnic valve when operated. These valves,(...) are the source of failures.
Is this for real ? |
Originally Posted by Flight Alloy
(Post 10611812)
Nope, 787 uses O2 bottles both for flight deck and cabin oxygen systems. Each 3 seat group shares one oxygen bottle in the bulkhead overhead, fired by a pyrotechnic valve when operated. These valves, by definition single use, can not be tested, and are the source of failures.
|
Originally Posted by double_barrel
(Post 10611961)
O2 bottles triggered by faulty pyrotechnic devices. What could possibly go wrong?
|
It's decades since worked with an airliner - VC10 in the RAF. But IIRC a functional check of all the passenger oxygen masks was an item of a periodic maintenance schedule. I assume that I still so with modern airliners? In which case, I would expect the airlines to be concerned at a high incidence of failure (25%) and to raise the issue with Boeing and the CAA / FAA. So it would not have needed a whistleblower to raise concern effectively. I can't see that the story adds up. That said, I accept that I am a long time away from the aircraft maintenance scene.
|
The pyrotechnically activated O2 bottles would have a certified lifetime beyond which they need replaced, but they evidently wouldn't be tested in the mean time as they are single use by design. There are several far more dangerous pyrotechnic agents on board passenger aircraft - none of those ever caused a problem to my knowledge - such as flares in the survival kit, and some escape slides/rafts have chemical agents to inflate them. I wouldn't get too excited about the activation mode of the bottles. But the failure rate and subsequent cover up by Boeing management AND the regulator, well, that is an entirely different story!
|
Originally Posted by kiwibrit
(Post 10612087)
It's decades since worked with an airliner - VC10 in the RAF. But IIRC a functional check of all the passenger oxygen masks was an item of a periodic maintenance schedule. I assume that I still so with modern airliners? In which case, I would expect the airlines to be concerned at a high incidence of failure (25%) and to raise the issue with Boeing and the CAA / FAA. So it would not have needed a whistleblower to raise concern effectively. I can't see that the story adds up. That said, I accept that I am a long time away from the aircraft maintenance scene.
|
Originally Posted by Flight Alloy
(Post 10611812)
Nope, 787 uses O2 bottles both for flight deck and cabin oxygen systems. Each 3 seat group shares one oxygen bottle in the bulkhead overhead, fired by a pyrotechnic valve when operated. These valves, by definition single use, can not be tested, and are the source of failures.
|
Also, how often do airlines suffer depressurization with extended high altitude flight, where some failed masks would result in detectable injury to passengers? Luckily very rarely, as most incidents result in immediate expeditious descent to breathable atmosphere, where in such an event a lack of functioning mask would almost be undetectable and its use practically unnecessary Not sure I would be happy without oxygen. Must pick one of the 75% of seats that has working oxygen. Ryannair would probably be charging a premium for them if they operated them |
Originally Posted by Radgirl
(Post 10612263)
Why bother to have slides? Or any other emergency equipment for 'rare events'? Would you care to tell us the duration of consciousness in the case of sudden depressurisation in the cruise for a healthy adult? And would you care to postulate on how long an elderly patient with heart disease would survive? And compare it with the time needed for an emergency descent to 10,000 feet?
Not sure I would be happy without oxygen. Must pick one of the 75% of seats that has working oxygen. Ryannair would probably be charging a premium for them if they operated them Emergency descent from FL400 to 10,000 ft: A lot longer. Flight Alloy: Also, how often do airlines suffer depressurization with extended high altitude flight, where some failed masks would result in detectable injury to passengers? |
Originally Posted by OldnGrounded
(Post 10612270)
Time of useful consciousness at FL400: 15-20 seconds. Probably less than that for me, with significant heart disease in my old age.
Emergency descent from FL400 to 10,000 ft: A lot longer. Probably good to note that the "detectable injuries" to pax with non-functioning masks would likely range from significant permanent brain damage to death. Always important to consider when establishing risk factors. But from 30.000ft you get back a bit of oxygen , there are lots of people that climb the Himalayas without oxygen and they do not suffer brain damage. But again I am not a brain specialist.. I just remember a decompression on a Spantax DC8 over the Netherlands from FL33 or 370 where half the O2 masks did bot deploy because stuck by nicotine tar .. Diverted to AMS. .. Nobody was injured, shocked yes, but most of the pax continued a few hours later to the Canaries... |
Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
(Post 10612300)
Not a medic but I think the critical part is from 400 to 300 , at 4000 ft/min (typical emergency descent on most types) say 2- 3 min deprivation ; like a long underwater scuba dive ., brain damage ?
But from 30.000ft you get back a bit of oxygen , there are lots of people that climb the Himalayas without oxygen and they do not suffer brain damage. But again I am not a brain specialist.. I just remember a decompression on a Spantax DC8 over the Netherlands from FL33 or 370 where half the O2 masks did bot deploy because stuck by nicotine tar .. Diverted to AMS. .. Nobody was injured, shocked yes, but most of the pax continued a few hours later to the Canaries... https://www.faa.gov/pilots/training/...%2061-107A.pdf Of course, that doesn't mean brain damage at that limit, but it does mean that few will be able to don those masks if they don't do so very quickly. I don't mean to suggest that serious or permanent injury is guaranteed, just that it's far too serious a risk to discount. You really, really want all the pax O2 systems to work when the cabin undergoes rapid decompression. |
Thanks for the tech briefing, including why the O2 supply is not tested, Flight Alloy. I think that the RAF VC10 C Mk1s I worked with in the late 60s had a manifold supply to the passenger emergency masks. Thereafter my aircraft experience was with military non passenger aircraft. I shall now retire back into my cave!
|
I would prefer that my cockpit crew test their oxygen supply to assure it works.
|
Originally Posted by Radgirl
(Post 10612263)
Why bother to have slides? Or any other emergency equipment for 'rare events'? Would you care to tell us the duration of consciousness in the case of sudden depressurisation in the cruise for a healthy adult? And would you care to postulate on how long an elderly patient with heart disease would survive? And compare it with the time needed for an emergency descent to 10,000 feet?
Not sure I would be happy without oxygen. Must pick one of the 75% of seats that has working oxygen. Ryannair would probably be charging a premium for them if they operated them |
Here is a link to the original STORY written by Gerald Eastman on his blog 'The Last Inspector' more than 1,5 years ago. The guy was a quality inspector for Boeing for many years and chronicles his battle for transparency and safety against the corporate machine of rushing jobs for profit. His blog is full of stories of his own and other colleagues experiences at both Boeing factories about corners cut, non conforming parts liberated from scrap cages and installed into production airframes to maintain production, and the pressures of management to bury any safety concerns and maintain tempo. He also goes into the complacency for the FAA in responding to whistleblower complaints and how the system worked to punish anyone with an ounce of integrity. Do head over and read if interested in the internal goings on by someone experienced in the business! Here's the main blog too for reference: The Last Inspector
|
|
I thought there were more drop down passenger masks than seats, to allow for infants sitting on laps
|
Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
(Post 10612300)
there are lots of people that climb the Himalayas without oxygen and they do not suffer brain damage.
Even then, survival at that altitude is only for a matter of hours even with supplementary oxygen, which is why it’s called the ‘death zone’ |
Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
(Post 10612300)
there are lots of people that climb the Himalayas without oxygen
|
My previous post was done tongue in cheek. I do know what happens with a sudden decompression and the max ROD. A significant proportion of paxs would die. Others would have long term hypoxic effects - dont worry about the medicine, just be assured any good lawyer would be after $$$ £££s for loss of job attainment, failure of relationships, mood swings and potential early cognitive degeneration
Luckily I normally fly below 2000 feet so I am not effected but I am surprised at the laisse faire attitude to yet another Boeing issue. The fact that nobody has come to harm is a matter of luck not judgement. Surely this should be an issue to be sorted immediately with interim measures such as free standing oxygen??? If it had been cc oxygen...... |
Originally Posted by topgas
(Post 10612541)
I thought there were more drop down passenger masks than seats, to allow for infants sitting on laps
|
Originally Posted by FlightlessParrot
(Post 10612703)
I was going to ask about this. Presumably there is some over-provision to allow for failures: does it get near to 25% (assuming that figure for failures is true/typical)? I'd also like to ask if this is a Boeing problem, or more widespread (assuming this equipment is supplied by a third party).
Oh, the whole row wouldn't work if the valve doesn't open.... |
Originally Posted by Lake1952
(Post 10612359)
I would prefer that my cockpit crew test their oxygen supply to assure it works.
To answer another poster's query, an additional pax mask is installed above every set of seats. Regarding failure to use supplemental O2 in the case of depressurisation I'm going to go out on a limb and say that during even the worst case scenario, i.e. explosive depress at FL450 followed by a poorly flown emergency descent to an intermediate altitude due terrain followed by a further descent to 10000' within 30 minutes of initial depress, the risk of serious or lasting effects is very low except, perhaps, for physical injury due to unrestrained pax movements while unconscious, or rarer cases where an underlying medical condition is triggered by the resulting hypoxia. My rationale: While Time of Useful Consciousness at FL450 is quoted as 9-15 seconds (it may be less in affected people, think seriously unfit or heavy smokers) and is reduced by activity, think walking back to your seat, the time to actual unconsciousness is much longer. And the time to actual deleterious effects of hypoxia on brain or other cells is even longer still. There are reports of passengers failing to refusing to don masks with no long-term or serious after-effects provided that the cabin altitude was reduced in the previously mentioned timely manner. Now, I am not defending the position challenged by the OP. Safety-sensitive systems such as supplemental O2 systems should not be experiencing 25% failure rates and manufacturers and regulators should not be brushing aside genuine reports of such failures. O2 systems are installed for very good reasons but I get the feeling we are overstating the risk a little. Ok, let the howling begin.... |
Originally Posted by Flight Alloy
(Post 10611812)
Nope, 787 uses O2 bottles both for flight deck and cabin oxygen systems. Each 3 seat group shares one oxygen bottle in the bulkhead overhead, fired by a pyrotechnic valve when operated. These valves, by definition single use, can not be tested, and are the source of failures.
The squib circuit should be testable for continuity non-destructively. It's what demolition pyrotechnicians do prior to setting off a group of charges to bring a building down. The failure of some could result in the structure falling in an uncontrolled manner. I would be seriously surprised if the O2 system did not incorporate such a built-in-test (BITE). Pyrotechnics themselves are pretty reliable, assuming that they are built with some quality control in mind. And if a suitable level of reliability can't be achieved, either redundant charges or a manual backup to open the O2 valve might be needed. |
@ Speed of sound + @ easy Street :
They spend many weeks and sometimes months acclimatising, where the number of red cells in their blood gradually increases to a level where the amount of oxygen scavenged from the atmosphere is greatly increased. |
While Time of Useful Consciousness at FL450 is quoted as 9-15 seconds If you can get to a breathable altitude within 90 seconds you’re probably going to be OK. The problem is that if someone has stopped breathing or suffered cardiac arrest from hypoxia, then they’re unlikely to spontaneously recover going below 20,000ft. |
I find this demonstration of a decompression at FL450 interesting and alarming. Count how long it takes the prepared gentleman to lose consciousness. |
Originally Posted by 2bigmellons
(Post 10612975)
I find this demonstration of a decompression at FL450 interesting and alarming. Count how long it takes the prepared gentleman to lose consciousness. SNIP VIDEO |
Any idea why Boeing have gone for O2 cylinders rather than chemical generators? Space/weight/maintenance/cost? |
Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
(Post 10612300)
Not a medic but I think the critical part is from 400 to 300 , at 4000 ft/min (typical emergency descent on most types) say 2- 3 min deprivation ; like a long underwater scuba dive ., brain damage ?
But from 30.000ft you get back a bit of oxygen , there are lots of people that climb the Himalayas without oxygen and they do not suffer brain damage. But again I am not a brain specialist.. I just remember a decompression on a Spantax DC8 over the Netherlands from FL33 or 370 where half the O2 masks did bot deploy because stuck by nicotine tar .. Diverted to AMS. .. Nobody was injured, shocked yes, but most of the pax continued a few hours later to the Canaries... 4000’ per minute ? You ain’t even trying . 7500’ is achievable |
Originally Posted by deltahotel
(Post 10613267)
Any idea why Boeing have gone for O2 cylinders rather than chemical generators? Space/weight/maintenance/cost? Regarding BITE checks, from memory I think there's an LED indicator on each bottle/valve assembly that shows the go/nogo state of the unit. I think they are ' on demand' too which means less O2 is required and therefore a smaller bottle, which again saves weight. |
Originally Posted by Meester proach
(Post 10613286)
4000’ per minute ? You ain’t even trying . 7500’ is achievable
|
"At height say above 35,000 ft as the emergency oxygen masks are not pressurized they will not prevent loss of consciousness."
How are the flightdeck masks pressurised? ( Not a professional, but thinking that "pressurised" does not, in this sense, refer to oxygen pressure at the mask.) |
Flight deck masks can give air mix or 100% and they can also give over pressure - main use for smoke/fumes so the smoke can’t get into the mask but will also give an element of pressure to assist O2 uptake. Flight deck would be ok for a good length of time purely from an O2 perspective. Pax masks don’t really seal so it’s only ever going to be O2/airmix at lowish pressure. At 35000’ it’s minus lots - prob -50. Any time spent above 25000 gives a good chance of decompression sickness (sub aqua experts anyone? Bends chokes creeps staggers). All the the above says get lower quickly. The 757 (Mr Boeing’s original streamlined crowbar) will do 6000fpm at Vmo, but if it’s a rapid decompress with the probability of structural damage do you really want to descend at Vmo? Just some thoughts. Slightly easier as a freight pilot as everyone on board will be on the flight deck with proper masks and O2. Much harder with pax from 0 to very old, all of unknown health and no knowledge or training. |
Originally Posted by deltahotel
(Post 10613389)
Flight deck masks can give air mix or 100% and they can also give over pressure - main use for smoke/fumes so the smoke can’t get into the mask but will also give an element of pressure to assist O2 uptake. Flight deck would be ok for a good length of time purely from an O2 perspective. Pax masks don’t really seal so it’s only ever going to be O2/airmix at lowish pressure. At 35000’ it’s minus lots - prob -50. Any time spent above 25000 gives a good chance of decompression sickness (sub aqua experts anyone? Bends chokes creeps staggers). All the the above says get lower quickly. The 757 (Mr Boeing’s original streamlined crowbar) will do 6000fpm at Vmo, but if it’s a rapid decompress with the probability of structural damage do you really want to descend at Vmo? Just some thoughts. Slightly easier as a freight pilot as everyone on board will be on the flight deck with proper masks and O2. Much harder with pax from 0 to very old, all of unknown health and no knowledge or training. |
All times are GMT. The time now is 19:23. |
Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.