RIP Capt. Al Haynes.
Captain Al Haynes of UA 232 fame has died. What he and his crew accomplished at Sioux City in 1989 is nothing short of remarkable airmanship. RIP Captain.
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R.I.P. dude! |
Originally Posted by Reluctant Bus Driver
(Post 10555683)
Captain Al Haynes of UA 232 fame has died. What he and his crew accomplished at Sioux City in 1989 is nothing short of remarkable airmanship. RIP Captain.
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They say we should never meet our heroes... if that were a rule, then Capt. Haynes was definitively the exception.
'Had the privilege of having a one on one dinner with him back in 2002. I was only 20, but it remains one of the highlights of my career to this day. Not only did he and his colleagues accomplish something remarkable on that fateful day in Sioux City, but he continued to enrich others by giving freely of his time. He was truly a hero, mentor, and inspiration. Rest in peace Captain Haynes, and Godspeed. |
Rest In Peace Captain, you earned it and then some.
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Originally Posted by Reluctant Bus Driver
(Post 10555683)
Captain Al Haynes of UA 232 fame has died. What he and his crew accomplished at Sioux City in 1989 is nothing short of remarkable airmanship. RIP Captain.
R.I.P Captain Al Haynes |
Rest In Peace, Captain Al Haynes
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RIP Capt. Haynes. A good pilot that he was was even an excellent human being.
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When I was just starting my aviation career, I had a privilege of having a beer with him back in 1994 in Oshkosh. What he told me, changed my way of thinking on procedures, checklists-orderly approach to anything.
Will be grateful forever. Rest in peace Capt. Haynes. hoistop |
Rest In Peace Captain |
They did a great job indeed. Nice to hear that the impression he made was also true in real life.
The lessons learned were not only on the piloting side. The accident helped in supporting safer design solutions that were already there, and future designs. |
All about attitude.
RIP Cpt Haynes. Just after the accident, I posted my opinion, which was roundly condemned by most but not everyone, thankfully. I made the point that Iowa is a largely flat state. I suggested that pilot's not unnatural desire to get their stricken aircraft back to an airport and to land on a runway made Cpt Haynes job a lot more difficult than if he had simply looked for the largest cornfield and glided it onto the ground. His ingrained attitude, save the aircraft and hence the passengers, led him to try what was proved to be an almost superhuman manoeuvre that sadly led to the loss of 110 lives. How about we just scrap the aircraft and save more lives, indeed, such is the strength of the DC10 that there may well have been no lives lost. Hypothetical, I know but I thought it bears repeating that there are often more than the obvious outcomes to such situations.
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Originally Posted by rubik101
(Post 10556745)
RIP Cpt Haynes. Just after the accident, I posted my opinion, which was roundly condemned by most but not everyone, thankfully. I made the point that Iowa is a largely flat state. I suggested that pilot's not unnatural desire to get their stricken aircraft back to an airport and to land on a runway made Cpt Haynes job a lot more difficult than if he had simply looked for the largest cornfield and glided it onto the ground. His ingrained attitude, save the aircraft and hence the passengers, led him to try what was proved to be an almost superhuman manoeuvre that sadly led to the loss of 110 lives. How about we just scrap the aircraft and save more lives, indeed, such is the strength of the DC10 that there may well have been no lives lost. Hypothetical, I know but I thought it bears repeating that there are often more than the obvious outcomes to such situations.
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Originally Posted by rubik101
(Post 10556745)
RIP Cpt Haynes. Just after the accident, I posted my opinion, which was roundly condemned by most but not everyone, thankfully. I made the point that Iowa is a largely flat state. I suggested that pilot's not unnatural desire to get their stricken aircraft back to an airport and to land on a runway made Cpt Haynes job a lot more difficult than if he had simply looked for the largest cornfield and glided it onto the ground. His ingrained attitude, save the aircraft and hence the passengers, led him to try what was proved to be an almost superhuman manoeuvre that sadly led to the loss of 110 lives. How about we just scrap the aircraft and save more lives, indeed, such is the strength of the DC10 that there may well have been no lives lost. Hypothetical, I know but I thought it bears repeating that there are often more than the obvious outcomes to such situations.
Cheers, Grog |
" I been flying jets since 68 and never had anything happen like this." Capt Al RIP
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It was powered all the way to the corn field.No gilding.
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Just after the accident, I posted my opinion, which was roundly condemned by most but not everyone, thankfully "Glided it onto the ground"? I'm speechless! |
Originally Posted by 212man
(Post 10556881)
Posted on what? Pretty sure there were no internet bulletin boards in 1989.
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Originally Posted by rubik101
(Post 10556745)
RIP Cpt Haynes. Just after the accident, I posted my opinion, which was roundly condemned by most but not everyone, thankfully. I made the point that Iowa is a largely flat state. I suggested that pilot's not unnatural desire to get their stricken aircraft back to an airport and to land on a runway made Cpt Haynes job a lot more difficult than if he had simply looked for the largest cornfield and glided it onto the ground. His ingrained attitude, save the aircraft and hence the passengers, led him to try what was proved to be an almost superhuman manoeuvre that sadly led to the loss of 110 lives. How about we just scrap the aircraft and save more lives, indeed, such is the strength of the DC10 that there may well have been no lives lost. Hypothetical, I know but I thought it bears repeating that there are often more than the obvious outcomes to such situations.
This incident is used as a case study of effective emergency management. Bringing the plane into an airport saved many lives. Not taking anything away from Capt Haynes or the crew, because this was an exceptional example of crew resource management, a big factor in the survival rates of this incident was the efforts of Sioux City to engage in comprehensive emergency response planning and response which was led by Gary Brown, the Woodbury County Disaster and Emergency Services director. He is an unsung hero of this incident, and someone Haynes has said is the true hero. Disaster arrangements all around the world have been modeled on Gary Brown's emergency planning, which would not have worked anywhere near as effectively if the plane was "glided" into a random cornfield. It's such an outstanding example of how people can and should respond to critical incidents in the cockpit and on the ground. |
Worth stating that the crew were forced to use asymmetric power on the remaining engines to maintain control, rolling off power on both engines on final may well have been the cause of the wing drop and subsequent cartwheel on touchdown.
So easy to recommend a different course of action, but don't forget that Captain Haynes did say, when asked which runway he wanted to use "you want to be particular and make it a runway huh?" RIP Captain Al Haynes |
I was just a FI starting my flying career, building hours in the early ´90s.
One day i got the opportunity to join a lecture AL gave at Langley AFB, VA. Al introduced himself and let us first see and hear what happened before giving a lecture so simple and strong i have never experienced again, i cannot remember how long it took, but i do remember the tapes, the real recording with ATC! The moment I heard ATC talking I thought " I think I know this guy!" AL`s lecture was amazing, will never forget it! And he did it in so simple words, as it was "normal" to him, just to do HIS and his crew´s job. I learned a lot that evening, and still carrying it with me, because that lecture you don't get in flight school nor CRM-courses nor from fellow colleagues ..... from nobody! 2 days later I did (i think) an IR training flight with a guy that was an ATC controller in Newport News airport, it was the ATC guy that offered AL even a highway close to the airport in case they could not make it or needed an option (the guy I heard on the tape from AL` lecture) This ATC guy (sorry bud, i forgot your name, its in my logbook but i am away from home...) left his hectic NY ATC place for a quiet Iowa...... and than got this on his hands.... To the family of AL, I am sorry for your loss, but you all can be proud of him, at least HE showed me some real CRM RIP AL! |
May he continue to fly with the eagles RIP |
His ingrained attitude, save the aircraft and hence the passengers, led him to try what was proved to be an almost superhuman manoeuvre that sadly led to the loss of 110 lives. How about we just scrap the aircraft and save more lives, indeed, such is the strength of the DC10 that there may well have been no lives lost. |
You’ve betrayed ignorance of the facts
Originally Posted by rubik101
(Post 10556745)
RIP Cpt Haynes. Just after the accident, I posted my opinion, which was roundly condemned by most but not everyone, thankfully. I made the point that Iowa is a largely flat state. I suggested that pilot's not unnatural desire to get their stricken aircraft back to an airport and to land on a runway made Cpt Haynes job a lot more difficult than if he had simply looked for the largest cornfield and glided it onto the ground. His ingrained attitude, save the aircraft and hence the passengers, led him to try what was proved to be an almost superhuman manoeuvre that sadly led to the loss of 110 lives. How about we just scrap the aircraft and save more lives, indeed, such is the strength of the DC10 that there may well have been no lives lost. Hypothetical, I know but I thought it bears repeating that there are often more than the obvious outcomes to such situations.
No gliding available. |
Originally Posted by bud leon
(Post 10556945)
...and someone Haynes has said is the true hero.
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Originally Posted by capngrog
(Post 10556761)
"Glided it onto the ground"? I'm speechless!
Cheers, Grog |
Originally Posted by Akrapovic
(Post 10557202)
Welcome to Pprune. . .. .
no kidding!!!!! |
rubik101 said:........Hypothetical, I know but I thought it bears repeating ..... |
Originally Posted by vilas
(Post 10557138)
I don't think anything can be more ridiculous than this. Everyone only tries to save lives but that's generally not possible unless the aircraft is kept in one or at least a few pieces. Gliding is also flying. With controls failure with a tendency to roll what Haynes did is nothing short of miracle.
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Originally Posted by rubik101
(Post 10556745)
Just after the accident, I posted my opinion, which was roundly condemned by most but not everyone,....
I'll close the flight deck door on my way out. |
Flight Safety Foundation point out a guest article he wrote back in 1991 for one of their publications: United 232
Ten pages well written and worth reading. And even including some humor: By then, we were about 14 seconds into the episode, and Bill said to me, “Al, I can’t control the airplane.” [...] I then said the dumbest thing I ever said in my life: “I’ve got it.” |
Rubik: Just a few points about gliding into the ground. To do that in a controlled fashion, you need to have the ability to use your tail control surfaces to flare the plane to a slower speed, And to not stall at this slower speed, you need to be able to deploy your flaps. This plane had none of these options available. They could not slow below 200+ kts and keep the plane in the air. They could not raise the nose other than by increasing engine thrust. While gliding might have been a good idea if they could dump speed down to 120 kts., but they could not. And as we know, KE = (1/2)*m*(v^2). So they had close to 3 times as much kinetic energy to deal with as in a controlled ditching. It was a miracle that they could even get the first impact with wings close to level.
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Pre those God-awful Air Crash Investigation shows. . . . a decent documentary on Sioux City .
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RIP Captain Haynes.
Blue skies and fair winds. |
Excellent link, noske! An amazing recounting of a petrifying tale from the PIC himself. One must salute Captain Haynes as he and Sully play poker and draw to (and hit!) royal flushes in Heaven, where the Wx is always CAVOK and engines never fail....
- Ed :ok: |
Originally Posted by cavuman1
(Post 10558089)
Excellent link, noske! An amazing recounting of a petrifying tale from the PIC himself. One must salute Captain Haynes as he and Sully play poker and draw to (and hit!) royal flushes in Heaven, where the Wx is always CAVOK and engines never fail....
- Ed :ok: Respect David |
Originally Posted by Lord Farringdon
(Post 10557868)
Your a pilot Rubik and I'm not. So on this esteemed forum I should just keep my fat mouth shut, but in this case have you ever wondered why you were the subject of such opprobrium and why you still continue to be? May I suggest you search for the missing logic in your argument since at the moment it seems like you would have taken this deeply stricken airliner and its precious cargo into a remote paddock and because physics is ...well physics, you would have suffered exactly the same low speed controlability issues that Captain Haynes and his erstwhile crew did. Except the unknowns of your cornfield probably would have solicited a much worse outcome and this is before we even consider that you have removed yourself from the life support systems that are encapsulated in our emergency response teams at the airfield. This aircraft should not have still been capable of being flown, but it was. Not to take anything away from Sully or the recent Russian A320 crash, but in contrast these events left the crews with quite flyable aircraft if you accept that flight time was extremely limited. Capt Haynes and the crew of AA96 (an earlieer DC10 cargo door blow out event) were both left struggling with aircraft that no longer wanted to remain in stable flight.The teamwork, ingenuity, personal skills and ability and most importantly, the 'don't give up' attitude, in both of these cases avoided complete disasters and saved far more lives than you give credit for Rubik. I throw your own quote back at you, 'there are often more than the obvious outcomes to such situations".
I'll close the flight deck door on my way out. very well said, you have better "aviation judgment" than Rubik, if indeed he is a pilot...(hopefully he is not) |
A true American hero, Capt Haynes, Capt Dennis Fitch (RIP), First Officer Bill Records and Flight Engineer (Dudley Dvorak, I believe) all worked as a team to do the best they could and made a truly superhuman effort. The co-operation between Haynes and Fitch ranks as one of the most outstanding examples of CRM you'd see. RIP Captain Haynes, you excelled.
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Originally Posted by criticalmass
(Post 10558282)
A true American hero, Capt Haynes, Capt Dennis Fitch (RIP), First Officer Bill Records and Flight Engineer (Dudley Dvorak, I believe) all worked as a team to do the best they could and made a truly superhuman effort. The co-operation between Haynes and Fitch ranks as one of the most outstanding examples of CRM you'd see. RIP Captain Haynes, you excelled.
yes indeed.... |
SLF here. Reading the CVR transcript http://www.tailstrike.com/190789.pdf, there was initially an (unnamed) Captain riding in the jumpseat, who contributed early on to getting the aircraft under some degree of control. He later gave way to Capt Fitch and then went to sit back in the cabin. Did he survive the subsequent landing?
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