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tdracer
Not sure about the high five, but as our Finnish neighbors very cool calm and collected!
" So Captain, Transit Shut Down checklist or Full Shutdown Checklist?" |
Originally Posted by littco
(Post 10546966)
Chances of hitting a flock of birds in IMC/night are next to 0. Simply as birds don't tend to fly at night in IMC. One thing to grateful of!
https://www.icao.int/Meetings/wildli...HRS%202017.pdf |
Towards the mention of a deliberate tail-strike: Reader beware. It is not the PIC being quoted but a commentator on the news, most likely a bit here or there lost in the translation too. Besides, without the L/G guess what is going to touch first? Pitch for level flight with 1+F cca 5 degrees NU.
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Originally Posted by GordonR_Cape
(Post 10546973)
I didn't see anyone post the FlightRadar24 profile for this flight: https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/u...fter-take-off/
It's not clear (FR24 doesn't say) whether or not the height readouts are adjusted for QNH, so if they aren't you need to subtract approximately 150' from each point. Either way, there's a bit missing from the beginning, and possibly the end, of the trace (Zhukovsky's rwy is 400' AMSL). |
He did a great job saved everyone. What's to bet he's also a stick and rudder pilot of some sort?
He's appropriately modest. Like Sully he was lucky on one level. Like Sully he took it and they all walked away. He says he's no hero, any pilot would do the same. He's right. But not all pilots could dead stick an electric jet into a cornfield. |
Originally Posted by F-16GUY
(Post 10547027)
Don't know where you got that info from. According to ICAO, 25% of all wildlife strikes between 2008-2015 occurred at night. Migratory birds do fly both night and IMC. Of the 3 I have had, 2 happened at night and one of the 2 was IMC at 2000'.
https://www.icao.int/Meetings/wildli...HRS%202017.pdf Seeing and hitting a flock of geese in day time is at least slightly better as you know what's happened, assuming you've seen them. As opposed to night IMC and hitting a flock of geese and not having a clue what the hells going on because there was no visual. I guess it's a small saviour birds dont seem to like to fly at night and in clouds! |
Back in the days of flying checks around at night in a clapped out aircraft, local guy hit a Canada Goose at about 5000 feet (IIRC). On the windshield. Severely cut up the pilot, who managed to land safely.
Several photos of the cockpit the next day, with incredible amount of chopped goose all over everything. So yes, they do fly at night. |
Originally Posted by F-16GUY
(Post 10547027)
Don't know where you got that info from. According to ICAO, 25% of all wildlife strikes between 2008-2015 occurred at night. Migratory birds do fly both night and IMC. Of the 3 I have had, 2 happened at night and one of the 2 was IMC at 2000'.
https://www.icao.int/Meetings/wildli...HRS%202017.pdf |
Frequently when the sh#t, (or seagull) hits the fan you often have to make a snap decision based on little more than instinct and training. There isnt time for manuals or discussions. You have to "do something" and "do it now".
In this case, whatever they did was the correct action for this particular circumstance. They kept their cool and delivered. Cant ask for more than that. Bloody good job chaps.:ok: |
I can't speak for all cabin crew but if I had to pick between getting a "brace brace" PA but a shoddy landing and having to guess and walking away... I'd rather walk away thanks :ok:
Sometimes you have the throw the book out and just get the job done however you can |
Originally Posted by gearlever
(Post 10546013)
Many moons ago an AUSTRIAN FOKKER crahed on a field close to at EDDM, both engines out due to icing
Pax o/b 27. They went on to an airport bus and about 20 or so took their connecting flights.... |
Birds do fly at night and in IMC
Originally Posted by littco
(Post 10547077)
I take this on board, but my point was the chances of hitting a flock of birds at night in IMC, large enough to take out both engines is next to 0.
Seeing and hitting a flock of geese in day time is at least slightly better as you know what's happened, assuming you've seen them. As opposed to night IMC and hitting a flock of geese and not having a clue what the hells going on because there was no visual. I guess it's a small saviour birds dont seem to like to fly at night and in clouds! I've hit a flock of geese in between cloud layers at night while on approach. Made a nice mess of our rh flaps. Had they flown in a different direction they could have ended up into all our engines. Just luck. And birds like seagulls tend to sit on the runway at night too. Makes you wonder if they were the first flight out that morning and if a bird check had been done. |
Originally Posted by Mariner
(Post 10547310)
..birds fly at night too, just like us. Alone or in flocks.
A heck of a lot of birds migrate at night..something that only really began to be appreciated with the introduction of radar.. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19459237 https://web.colby.edu/mainebirds/201...nal-migration/ |
Originally Posted by givemewings
(Post 10547227)
I can't speak for all cabin crew but if I had to pick between getting a "brace brace" PA but a shoddy landing and having to guess and walking away... I'd rather walk away thanks :ok:
If not, then what's it for ? |
If not, what's it for |
Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
(Post 10547348)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the whole point of the brace position to improve the passengers' and F/As' chances of walking away from an abnormal landing ?
As almost everything in aviation, the "brace position" is a compromise and the least of some evils. It is supposed to (kind of but not really) protect your head and chest from flying debris. But it's, by no means, ideal. Especially considering that it was "invented" at the times when economy had a 40-inch pitch and NASA could afford to crash an airliner just to see what happens inside. And just like most of the "common knowledge" from those times, it's a myth. Not unlike the "dangers" of activating the de-icing boots "too soon". |
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Speaking in my capacity as a moderately-interested SLF...
For all of you debating the merits of gear up, gear down, this checklist, that checklist etc., surely the important points are these: 1) Aircraft with minimal power due to double bird strike gets down safely 2) Everyone got out safely. Problem solved, no? |
Originally Posted by atakacs
(Post 10547545)
Reading Russian press reports that both ATC and crew were aware of the birds nearby... |
Originally Posted by EnglishMartyn
(Post 10547556)
Speaking in my capacity as a moderately-interested SLF...
For all of you debating the merits of gear up, gear down, this checklist, that checklist etc., surely the important points are these: 1) Aircraft with minimal power due to double bird strike gets down safely 2) Everyone got out safely. Problem solved, no? |
Originally Posted by VH DSJ
(Post 10547285)
People were generally a lot tougher back in those days. After an accident, they can easily put it all behind them quickly and literally move on. No trauma counselling, nor rehab. Gee I hope they got their luggage transferred as well.
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Originally Posted by UltraFan
(Post 10547538)
How exactly does bringing your head closer to the hard plastic of the seat back in front of you improve your chances?
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Engine option
are there different engine options for the A320/321 series . Would be interested to know ifs the same engines as Sullys aircraft. A bird strike gonna damage any engine but still be interested in the comparison of the engines and the damage that resulted. Well done to crew, nice to hear a good news aviation safety story from that region of the world |
Originally Posted by Back door
(Post 10547618)
are there different engine options for the A320/321 series . Would be interested to know ifs the same engines as Sullys aircraft. A bird strike gonna damage any engine but still be interested in the comparison of the engines and the damage that resulted. Well done to crew, nice to hear a good news aviation safety story from that region of the world |
Originally Posted by CEJM
(Post 10547624)
Yes, same engines. Both had CFM56’s. |
Originally Posted by EnglishMartyn
(Post 10547556)
Speaking in my capacity as a moderately-interested SLF...
For all of you debating the merits of gear up, gear down, this checklist, that checklist etc., surely the important points are these: 1) Aircraft with minimal power due to double bird strike gets down safely 2) Everyone got out safely. Problem solved, no? Yes, the positive outcome and everyone being alive is the ultimate result. But every crash give us something even more important - a lesson to learn. And since at least some people here are pilots, of course they can't help thinking, "what if it was me". And "what would I do"? This discussion is the way to answer that question. Or maybe people just like to talk. :O |
My biggest question to the investigators is, why they continued to roll after the FIRST strike? The cabin video clearly shows at least six birds hitting the left engine, yet the plane kept on rolling. If I understand this recording correctly, they realized the problem with the left engine just 8-19 seconds after the start of the take-off roll, and declared panpan. They were still on the ground when it happened. I just checked, ZIA has 4,600m long runway, enough tarmac to abort and stop. Why didn't they?
And the second question is, why the tower had to explain to the rescue team what they should do. Fourth phrase from the bottom: "Boys, you got the coordinates, the plane crashed beyond the runway. What do you mean you're staying? Move there. Fire engines stay. The rest of the rescue vehicles move there." YOU'RE A RESCUE TEAM AND YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO!? WHAT THE... |
Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
(Post 10547348)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the whole point of the brace position to improve the passengers' and F/As' chances of walking away from an abnormal landing ?
If not, then what's it for ? Your seat needs to be upright so the poor side behind you can get out of his during the evac, and so you can reach the seat in front in order to brace. It may not be effective in all instances though, ask any emergency room doctor who's seen sleeping passengers in road accidents come out unscathed while the awake ones got broken bones or worse from trying to "brace for impact"impaccalling for brace may actually have made things worse in such a short time as pax might have been confused about what to do and adopted wrong position, been midway through and injured themselves. I'm sure they knew something wasn't right but probably not realising how serious it actually was may have contributed to them all walking away rather than a panic. Just my opinion of course |
Is there an English translation of that transcript? UltraFan seems to have an unfair advantage here! |
Originally Posted by UltraFan
(Post 10547701)
My biggest question to the investigators is, why they continued to roll after the FIRST strike? The cabin video clearly shows at least six birds hitting the left engine, yet the plane kept on rolling. If I understand this recording correctly, they realized the problem with the left engine just 8-19 seconds after the start of the take-off roll, and declared panpan. They were still on the ground when it happened. I just checked, ZIA has 4,600m long runway, enough tarmac to abort and stop. Why didn't they?
And the second question is, why the tower had to explain to the rescue team what they should do. Fourth phrase from the bottom: "Boys, you got the coordinates, the plane crashed beyond the runway. What do you mean you're staying? Move there. Fire engines stay. The rest of the rescue vehicles move there." YOU'RE A RESCUE TEAM AND YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO!? WHAT THE... 2) So easy to be wise after the event. |
OK guys. Lots of talk on here, but here's a question...Could you have done as well? I posted after the Hudson that, with forty years aviating, it's nice to think I could have, but I very much doubt it.. The same applies here. Impossible situation, everyone survived. Very well done.
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Originally Posted by MPN11
(Post 10547731)
Is there an English translation of that transcript? UltraFan seems to have an unfair advantage here! Transcript of the negotiations of the pilots of the A321 aircraft, which sat down in a field with cornOn the morning of August 15, Airbus 321 Ural Airlines pilots Damir Yusupov and Georgy Murzin landed a plane in a cornfield in the Moscow Region just a few minutes after the departure from Zhukovsky Airport. The reason for the forced landing was the failure of engines, in which flocks of birds fell. Judging by the negotiations with the dispatchers, which we publish below, the pilots gave an emergency signal and reported the failure of one engine almost immediately after takeoff. The controllers, in turn, several times warned the pilots about the migratory birds. Designations: Proud - the radio call sign of Zhukovsky airport. СЖР178 - the call sign of flight U6178. PAN-PAN - emergency signal. Negotiations with the airport controller: 06:00:32 - 06:01:45 Pilot: Proud taxiing, good morning, СЖР 178 in the parking lot, allow the weather and the conditions for access to Simferopol. Dispatcher: Proud, good morning. At the departure of the 12th lane, the wind is 110 degrees, 5 meters, visibility is 7 kilometers, the lower edge is not defined, QNH 1008, QFE 994, temperature 16 degrees, cohesion coefficient 0.5, individual bird flights. For the departure, count the 12th lane. Allowed according to the plan for Simferopol at the take-off course, dial 900 meters, communication with Proud 125.25. Squock will be optional. Pilot: Received information. The strip in the work is the 12th. In a straight line, we recruit 900, we work 125.25. Squawk additionally, SJR178. Dispatcher: That's right. 06:05:38 - 06:05:54 Pilot: Allow towing and launch. Dispatcher: I allow towing to the second point, start on readiness. Pilot: The second was allowed, launch on readiness, SZHR 178. 06:09:25 - 06:09:46 Pilot: SZHR 178, I ask taxiing. Dispatcher: SZHR 178, preliminary runway 12 I authorize. Runway 12 behind the escort vehicle at B7. Pilot: Advance lanes 12 allowed, by B7 behind the escort vehicle. 06:11:20 - 06:11:38 Pilot: SJR 178, preliminary strip 12. Dispatcher: SZHR 178, work. Bon Voyage! Pilot: Work. 125,250. Thank you very much, and all the best to you! Negotiations with an air traffic controller: 06:11:39 - 06:11:57 Pilot: Proud launch, СЖР 178, preliminary runway 12. Dispatcher: SJR 178, good morning! Occupy executive runway 12. Wind off the ground 110 degrees, 4 meters per second. 06:12:28 - 06:12:51 Pilot: СЖР 178. Ready for take-off. Dispatcher: Runway 12. I authorize take-off, individual bird flights. SJR 178: Runway 12, take off, SJR 178. 06:14:10 - 06:14:21 Pilot: SZHR, PAN PAN, PAN PAN, PAN PAN, SZHR. 06:14:29 - 06:14:39 Dispatcher: SJR 178. Pilot: PAN PAN, PAN PAN, PAN PAN, SZHR 178. One engine failure. Dispatcher: SVR 178, your decision. 06:14:55 - 06:15:09 Pilot: Allow reverse reversal. Height. Dispatcher: Allowed reverse call. Pilot: Return call allowed, SZHR 178. But the pilots did not begin to deploy the plane back to the airport. According to PIC Damir Yusupov, they wanted to return after the failure of one engine. After the pilots realized that the second engine began to lose power and the speed began to fall, they had to land the plane in the nearest place - on a corn field. 06:15:49 - 06:15:57 Dispatcher: СЖР 178 Proudly. Pilot: Sverdlovsky, we ask for an ambulance and rescue service. Dispatcher: We are waiting. Your height and how many passengers are on board? Pilot: Altitude. We performed, sat behind the strip. Passengers 226 and seven crew members. Dispatcher: Repeat again. Pilot: 226 and 7 crew members. Dispatcher: 226 passengers and 7 crew members? Pilot: 7 crew members. 06:16:52 — 06:16:5706:16:52 - 06:16:57 Dispatcher: СЖР 178, where are you? Pilot: Minute, SZHR 178. Did the emergency beacon work? Dispatcher: Once again. Repeat. Pilot: Did the emergency beacon work for us? Dispatcher: No, it did not work. 06:18:11 - 06:18:22 Dispatcher: Watching this, SJR 178. Pilot: Do not distract, we have the evacuation of passengers. 06:19:18 - 06:19:45 Dispatcher: СЖР 178, report the situation. Pilot: All passengers were evacuated, SZHR 178. Dispatcher: Victims, victims, tell me. Pilot: No casualties, injured later. Dispatcher: Got it later. 06:25:36 - 06:27:31 Dispatcher: СЖР 178 Proudly. Pilot: At the reception. Dispatcher: SZHR 178, do not tell me the number of victims? Pilot: No injuries. Dispatcher: SJR 178, I understand that there are no victims. All evacuated, understand correctly? Pilot: All evacuated. Did you find our location? We turned on the emergency beacon. Dispatcher: All emergency services are notified. Pilot: Thank you. 06:48:10 - 06:48:29 Pilot: At the reception, SJR 178. At the reception. At the reception. Dispatcher: СЖР 178, but can you tell me your location? Pilot: Wait a minute. Pilot: SJR 178. Dispatcher: Answered Proud, SJR 178. Pilot: Coordinates. EMU: 30.46.55.7 'north latitude. 38̊15.7 East. Dispatcher: Tell me the latitude again. Pilot: 55–30.6 north latitude, 38–15.2 east longitude. Dispatcher: SZHR 178, tell me again the latitude, please. Pilot: Coordinates 55̊. Dispatcher: Yes. Pilot: 6 north latitude. Dispatcher: There are 6. Pilot: 15 point 2 east longitude. Dispatcher: I accepted everything. Negotiation of a dispatcher with ground services: 04:13:40 Dispatcher: 03, Proud. 03: Answered. D: Let’s go, inspect the strip. 03: Got it, I'm leaving. Dispatcher: Especially the “Trap” (pairing the MRD3 with the runway 12/30) and the “B7” area, the presence of birds. Although unlikely, but still. 03: I'm leaving. 06:46:28 05: Proud 05th. D: Proud answered. 05: Do we need to send a Ramport bus for the passengers, or is it not necessary? D: Naturally, you need to evacuate passengers with something. 05: Accepted. We send buses. I understood correctly, once again - in the area of the long-distance drive, where are the fishermen? D: About yes. 05: Accepted. 07: 06.04 05: Proud 05. D: Answered. 05: Do we stay here or do we go to duty stations, what are we willing to do? D: Guys, they gave you the coordinates, the plane fell over the lane. What, where do you stay ?! Move out there. Fire engines stand still. The rest of the emergency rescue vehicles all move out there. 05: The emergency services have already left there. D: Well everyone else is standing there waiting then. 05: Accepted. They stand still. |
Originally Posted by MPN11
(Post 10547731)
Is there an English translation of that transcript? UltraFan seems to have an unfair advantage here! https://translate.google.com/transla...b-a34d6b26adfe |
Admittedly, rescue service did sound a bit disoriented and lackluster in the transcript. Hopefully, they will look into this for future improvement.
The rest is great, though. The time period between the pan-pan and the "don't interrupt, we are evacuating" is astonishingly short. |
Birds on runway procedure
After listening to the radio, it appears that ATC warned the pilots twice about the birds on runway.
1.I did a lot take offs and landings at various airports with the birds "vacating" runway right in front of the airplane. Scary... But never I heard ATC warning me about the birds. Not to mention warned twice. I do not remember if it exists in UK CAP413. I do not remember reading any manuals or local procedures about any actions required by the pilot if he observes birds all round the place. May be, in the worst case, one would report birds to ATC and request for assistance. However, I would not know what to do if ATC themselves warns me about the birds activity right before the take off, twice. I guess it sounds similar to ATC warning about wake turbulence and take off at my discretion, after which I would give it enough time to get around. What do I do when ATC warns me about the birds twice? Open the window and shout at birds? Or steer carefully around the birds on take off? Sound stupid. Any one ever heard this ATC warning and what is the procedure? 2. These Pilots did good, given the pressure and realities. |
The A321 was built as G-OMYA Airbus A321-211 for MyTravel Airways
but NTU 2x CFMI CFM56-5B3/P |
Originally Posted by lomapaseo
(Post 10547640)
It's the engine control response to damage that's important, coupled with crew action, if any.
Now, the A320 is a common aircraft with thousands flying, and the CFM56-5 powers a goodly percentage of those. But there are also a whole lot of V2500 powered A320s, not to mention several thousand more 737s powered by CFM56-7 engines (different fan) - and none of those have had bird strike related dual engine power loss. Perhaps it's a statistical fluke, and the CFM56-5 bird strike resistance is just as good as the other engines, but if it was up to me I'd be taking a good, hard look at the -5 bird strike resistance... |
aviate
navigate communicate thats what they did... perfect job... they just aviated.... no bull**** |
4600m runway. V1 and Vr are going to be coincident in an A321 and pretty much any aircraft. If there was a bird strike, into the engine before V1/Vr it’s not an easy call to make. Is the engine still producing power? Are there any engine instrument indications suggesting the engine is failing? Bang or swing? Didn’t seem like it in the video. Could it be a tyre burst? Do you want to stop close to Vr with a tyre burst? It’s not cut and dried. Someone earlier in the thread was banging on about doing the checklist correctly. Tell that to the Swissair MD11 pax and crew who delayed landing at Halifax to finish the SFF checklist before landing. RIP to them all. On the face of it the crew look like they did a great job under difficult circs’. |
Is it not well established that the NYC case had multiple hits beyond the present certification specifications, of all present engines? And we do not know what hit this last one yet. Also, when did it hit.
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