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-   -   Norwegian 787 blows a donk in FCO (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/624494-norwegian-787-blows-donk-fco.html)

ManaAdaSystem 11th Aug 2019 11:19

Norwegian 787 blows a donk in FCO
 
https://avherald.com/h?article=4cb6a09d&opt=0


A Norwegian Long Haul Boeing 787-8, registration LN-LND performing flight DY-7115 from Rome Fiumicino (Italy) to Los Angeles,CA (USA), was in the initial climb out of Rome's runway 16R when an engine (Trent 1000) failed emitting debris onto the ground below. The crew stopped the climb at 3000 feet, secured the engine and returned to Rome for a safe landing on runway 16R about 23 minutes after departure.

The Mayor of Fiumicino reported 25 vehicles and 12 houses were damaged by debris falling off the aircraft, one man on the ground was hit too. The man was just frightened and remained uninjured however.

Local residents reported glowing pieces of metal rained down in the hundreds.

The airline reported the aircraft returned to Rome due to a technical problem.

Italy's ANSV have dispatched investigators on site.
Not too familiar with the engine problems on the 787, but I thought they needed to be modified? Are the airlines allowed to fly the aircraft while they wait for the engines to be modified? Or is this incident an unrelated issue?
Luckily nobody on the ground got killed.

NEDude 11th Aug 2019 16:13

The RR engines (Rotating Rubbish...) have several restrictions on them. Many of them are cycle limited, and some versions have been restricted to ETOPS 138 instead of 180. I am sure this will place further restrictions on those junk engines. Rolls Royce and Boeing, not a great combination these days...

Icejock 11th Aug 2019 19:13

This was an updated Package B engine...

atakacs 11th Aug 2019 19:19


Originally Posted by Icejock (Post 10542671)
This was an updated Package B engine...

Whoops. Doesn't bode well...

Dave Therhino 11th Aug 2019 20:13


Originally Posted by Icejock (Post 10542671)
This was an updated Package B engine...

Can you elaborate? There are about 5 different issues with those engines and I'm curious if you know what was updated on it. Thanks.

Alwaysairbus 11th Aug 2019 20:25

I guess in the strive for efficiency that reliability has taken a hit. The alternate engine has issues too pushing current technology to the limits, the GE90 on the 777 still has regular BUG failures after 25 years, as for the MAX and now A320NEO with their stab AFCS faults, the A350 computer resets every so many days, it all reminds me of working the L1011 Tristar in the 1990's. I am afraid it looks like we are now in an industry relying on backups rather than designing safety and reliability in to the airframes and engines in the first place. I think they call it safety risk assessment.

atakacs 11th Aug 2019 20:38

From the various picture showing up this one seems to have pretty much disintegrated. Lucky that no-one got hurt.

Sailvi767 11th Aug 2019 20:52

This is also the same basic engine on the A330-900 modified for bleed air. It’s the only engine option on the 900 so might impact sales on a already slow selling airframe.

swh 12th Aug 2019 04:03


Originally Posted by Sailvi767 (Post 10542738)
This is also the same basic engine on the A330-900 modified for bleed air. It’s the only engine option on the 900 so might impact sales on a already slow selling airframe.

Nope the 787 engine problems that both GE and RR are seeing failures on are basically due to the requirements placed upon them. GE engines have also seen failures and premature replacements.

RR have said the issues on the 787 engine are specific issues related to the airframe.

There seems to be a good reason why the 747-8, 737MAX, A350, A320neo, A330neo, and 777X did not got “bleedless”. The energy needs to be extracted from the engine somehow.

Dave Therhino 12th Aug 2019 05:00


Originally Posted by swh (Post 10542886)
RR have said the issues on the 787 engine are specific issues related to the airframe.

I actually laughed out loud when I read that.

Fursty Ferret 12th Aug 2019 09:19


There seems to be a good reason why the 747-8, 737MAX, A350, A320neo, A330neo, and 777X did not got “bleedless”. The energy needs to be extracted from the engine somehow.
#14 (permalink)
Dave Therhino's AvatarDave Therhino , 12th Aug 2019 05:00
Exactly. I'm not sure why Boeing went all-electric on the 787. I can see arguments for the cabin air supply, but taking 250kW from the IP turbine, rectifying it, and inverting it once again to drive the CACs surely outweighs the simple benefit of taking bleed air directly from the compressor.

The air quality seems no better (very dry) since Boeing updated the CAC schedules to minimise surging.

Likewise with the electric brakes - they seem bulkier than their hydraulic equivalents and more prone to failure.

Pros? Well, I'm a big fan of the dual engine start.

Torquelink 12th Aug 2019 11:09


This is also the same basic engine on the A330-900 modified for bleed air. It’s the only engine option on the 900 so might impact sales on a already slow selling airframe.
Actually, the Trent 7000 on the A330-800 and -900 is derived from the Trent 1000-TEN on the 787 and the Trent XWB 84 on the A350 both of which are substantially different to the Trent 1000-A/B/C and, while not immune to some of the same issues, is likely to be far less affected.

Out Of Trim 12th Aug 2019 12:31

A lot of folk deriding the engine without knowing what actually happened to cause it! Was it caused by FOD or a bird strike or a mechanical failure?

lomapaseo 12th Aug 2019 13:34


Originally Posted by Out Of Trim (Post 10543162)
A lot of folk deriding the engine without knowing what actually happened to cause it! Was it caused by FOD or a bird strike or a mechanical failure?

Well of course many like to sound knowledgeable by citing history. I just can't recall a similar event (dumped turbine blade pieces) on the B787, but I'm sure somebody will throw out something.

ManaAdaSystem 12th Aug 2019 17:59


Originally Posted by Out Of Trim (Post 10543162)
A lot of folk deriding the engine without knowing what actually happened to cause it! Was it caused by FOD or a bird strike or a mechanical failure?

I’ve never seen a birdstrike cause anything like this. Damage yes, but a spray of engine parts out the back? 25 houses and 12 cars damaged by falling parts. Norwegian says this is an ongoing investigation and doesn’t want to comment.
If this is a modified engine as somebody said, it’s really bad news for operators with these engines.
Add the fact that engine pairs have about the same number of hours and I for one would be reluctant to go on an aircraft with these engines.
The modifications are about fanblades/turbine blades?

golfyankeesierra 12th Aug 2019 18:23


Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem (Post 10543330)
Add the fact that engine pairs have about the same number of hours

I heard the rumor that the first thing Norwegian does with a new plane straight out the factory is swapping one of the new engines with an old one..

Porrohman 12th Aug 2019 18:25


Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem (Post 10543330)


I’ve never seen a birdstrike cause anything like this. Damage yes, but a spray of engine parts out the back? 25 houses and 12 cars damaged by falling parts. Norwegian says this is an ongoing investigation and doesn’t want to comment.
If this is a modified engine as somebody said, it’s really bad news for operators with these engines.
Add the fact that engine pairs have about the same number of hours and I for one would be reluctant to go on an aircraft with these engines.
The modifications are about fanblades/turbine blades?

The engine pairs don't necessarily have the same hours. There's currently a restriction on fitting two engines (of the type affected by the known problems) with more than a certain number of cycles on the same aircraft. This is for exactly the reason you are concerned about.

ManaAdaSystem 12th Aug 2019 18:28


Originally Posted by Porrohman (Post 10543345)
The engine pairs don't necessarily have the same hours. There's currently a restriction on fitting two engines (of the type affected by the known problems) with more than a certain number of cycles on the same aircraft. This is for exactly the reason you are concerned about.

Where do they get old engines from?

Out Of Trim 12th Aug 2019 18:38


Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem (Post 10543347)


Where do they get old engines from?

I'd guess from one of their older fleet and swapped for the new one. So one older and one new on each aircraft until enough new ones available to swap out all the older ones maybe.

Sailvi767 12th Aug 2019 19:19


Originally Posted by Fursty Ferret (Post 10543047)
Exactly. I'm not sure why Boeing went all-electric on the 787. I can see arguments for the cabin air supply, but taking 250kW from the IP turbine, rectifying it, and inverting it once again to drive the CACs surely outweighs the simple benefit of taking bleed air directly from the compressor.

The air quality seems no better (very dry) since Boeing updated the CAC schedules to minimise surging.

Likewise with the electric brakes - they seem bulkier than their hydraulic equivalents and more prone to failure.

Pros? Well, I'm a big fan of the dual engine start.

The 787 is humidified. The cabin air quality is the best out there. Pure air without the additions from the engine and a comfortable humidity level instead of near zero in other airframes.

david340r 12th Aug 2019 21:10

I believe bleed air has to be cooled before entering the cabin, which under some conditions could condense some of the water content out resulting in the low humidity experienced (building air conditioning plants will cool air below the target and then warm it back up to ensure it isn't too humid). I'm guessing the 787 cabin compressors don't heat the air so much, so perhaps lose less moisture this way? But I can't imagine them carrying a tank of water to actively humidify the air?

MickG0105 12th Aug 2019 23:31


Originally Posted by Smooth Airperator (Post 10543409)
No independent humidity tests have been conducted on the 787 or any other aircraft.

You're correct with regards to the Dreamliner but there has been at least one rather thorough independent test of air quality and relative humidity performed by Carlo Giaconia using an A319 flying a variety of short haul routes. His paper is here.

DingerX 13th Aug 2019 05:51

787s have humidifiers for flight deck and crew rest air. Something like that is being done on the A350 and 777X as well, with humidification of first and business as on option. For the most part, the cabin experience is the same.
The colder the air, the less moisture it can hold, so if you cool air with nonzero relative humidity, the resulting air will have a higher relative humidity, which is why air conditioners have dehumidifiers. If you warm air, the result has a lower relative humidity. If the air outside is -40, heating it to room temperature is going to create a very dry environment that sucks the water out of you. This has nothing to do with bleed air or electrically heated.

There's also the claim when the 380 and 787 were entering service that they're pressurized to 6000 feet, while previous gen ac are pressurized to 8000. I'll leave it to someone else to say how often their Cabin Alt climbs to 8000.

Less Hair 13th Aug 2019 08:32

Hasn't the claim been the humidity could be set higher because of the CFRP fuselage? Like less corrosion risk or similar?

SLF3 13th Aug 2019 10:15

Given the issues with the Trent I'm surprised this has not caused more of a stir.

Was this a mechanical failure of the engine, a precautionary shutdown, or was there an external cause?

Ian W 13th Aug 2019 11:31


Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem (Post 10543330)


I’ve never seen a birdstrike cause anything like this. Damage yes, but a spray of engine parts out the back? 25 houses and 12 cars damaged by falling parts. Norwegian says this is an ongoing investigation and doesn’t want to comment.
If this is a modified engine as somebody said, it’s really bad news for operators with these engines.
Add the fact that engine pairs have about the same number of hours and I for one would be reluctant to go on an aircraft with these engines.
The modifications are about fanblades/turbine blades?

Perhaps it was an ingested small UAS (aka drone) so a drone strike/mid-air collision, not a bird strike.


tdracer 13th Aug 2019 18:15


Originally Posted by Less Hair (Post 10543724)
Hasn't the claim been the humidity could be set higher because of the CFRP fuselage? Like less corrosion risk or similar?

It's not 'set' higher - as Dinger noted there simply isn't much moisture in the outside air at 35k - compressing it and heating it doesn't change that regardless of how you do it.
What they were able to do on the 787 - that hadn't been done previously - was have humidifiers to improve the humidity of the passenger (and crew) air. The carbon fiber construction meant there is no corrosion risk associated with that, but the ability to add humidifiers for passenger comfort has always been there - just seldom used.
It's up to the operator as to if they bother to service the humidifiers with water between flights...

BTW, for all the problems the Trent 1000 has been having, the current generation of engines is still an order of magnitude more reliable than what was available 40 years ago. Back then, people thought a shutdown every 10,000 hours was just fine, today a shutdown every 100,000 hours is cause for concern.

RetiredBA/BY 13th Aug 2019 19:58


Originally Posted by tdracer (Post 10544194)
What they were able to do on the 787 - that hadn't been done previously - was have humidifiers to improve the humidity of the passenger (and crew) air
.

Not true, The VC 10 had humidifiers back in the 70s . Engine driven compressors supplied the air , not bleed.

TURIN 13th Aug 2019 21:42

787 Humidity
 
Zonal driers in the crown area stops the moisture from condensing out, it is then recirculated back into the cabin to keep the humidity level above 15%.

At least, thats the theory.

Back to exploding engines....

Viscount Way 13th Aug 2019 22:12

Indeed it did have Godfrey engine driven compressors, just like the Viscount! The VC10 ones had variable output controlled by a slide valve which often leaked huge quantities of oil into the a/c ducting. Nothing new....

Jet Jockey A4 14th Aug 2019 00:25

6000 foot cabin at what cruising altitude in a B787?

Meester proach 14th Aug 2019 04:06


Originally Posted by Jet Jockey A4 (Post 10544416)
6000 foot cabin at what cruising altitude in a B787?


All the way to the ceiling of 430

ManaAdaSystem 14th Aug 2019 08:17


Originally Posted by Ian W (Post 10543890)
Perhaps it was an ingested small UAS (aka drone) so a drone strike/mid-air collision, not a bird strike.

When you have an engine with known issues and that engine starts to spew engine parts out the back, I lean towards a connection between the two. And that can mean really bad news for operators of these engines. If taking them off the aircraft for modifications doesn’t solve the problem...

What was acceptable 40 years ago is not acceptable today. 180 minutes ETOPS with possible dodgy engines...😮

Whitemonk Returns 14th Aug 2019 08:49

I think people are getting caught up in Boeing spin here, our 30 year old 757s regularly cruise along at 6000 feet cabin altitude but our 737s sit at 8000 at the same level. Both use standard engine bleed as far as I'm aware

lomapaseo 14th Aug 2019 10:47


Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem (Post 10544599)


When you have an engine with known issues and that engine starts to spew engine parts out the back, I lean towards a connection between the two. And that can mean really bad news for operators of these engines. If taking them off the aircraft for modifications doesn’t solve the problem...

What was acceptable 40 years ago is not acceptable today. 180 minutes ETOPS with possible dodgy engines...😮

Once again association does not equal causation.

Big pieces typically equate to loose larger bits which often stem from the cooler parts in a turbine. I was under the impression that the earlier publizied problem was in the hot part of the turbine.So I remain neutral in picking a cause out of a news item.

ManaAdaSystem 14th Aug 2019 13:20


Originally Posted by lomapaseo (Post 10544748)
Once again association does not equal causation.

Big pieces typically equate to loose larger bits which often stem from the cooler parts in a turbine. I was under the impression that the earlier publizied problem was in the hot part of the turbine.So I remain neutral in picking a cause out of a news item.

I agree, but you can’t exclude the possibility of an additional problem with the engine.

Porrohman 14th Aug 2019 14:36

I'm surprised how little factual information has been released about this incident, especially given the history of problems with the Trent on the 787. The only photo of the affected engine I could find had a large advertising board placed in front of it to try to prevent photos of the damage. Normally, by this stage, we would have seen photos of the damaged engine, know the variant of the engine, the number of cycles and hours it had done, and have some idea about what part of the engine had failed, even if the cause is still to be determined.

Twitter had this amusing observation;

As avgeeks like @janlisiecki most likely know: BOEING = Bits Of Engines In Neighbor‘s Garden

OMAAbound 15th Aug 2019 07:57

What about ANZ 787 that decided it needed to loose a few KG's on departure from AKL (I think it was) , didn't that shower the local community with fan blades?

ManaAdaSystem 15th Aug 2019 11:33


Originally Posted by OMAAbound (Post 10545596)
What about ANZ 787 that decided it needed to loose a few KG's on departure from AKL (I think it was) , didn't that shower the local community with fan blades?

That happened in 2016, so I doubt the engine was modified.
It would be interesting to see pictures of the Norwegian FCO incident engine and how it compares to the ANZ one. Both sprayed parts out the back.

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2017/12/0...ed-787-engine#

Sailvi767 15th Aug 2019 13:05


Originally Posted by Whitemonk Returns (Post 10544624)
I think people are getting caught up in Boeing spin here, our 30 year old 757s regularly cruise along at 6000 feet cabin altitude but our 737s sit at 8000 at the same level. Both use standard engine bleed as far as I'm aware

Your 757’s are a bit different than ours. At the same altitude the 757 would have a lower cabin altitude because of how it was scheduled but they typically cruised much higher so the actual cabin altitude was the same. All the Boeing older airframes had the same max differential pressure. The 787 is pressurized to a higher differential pressure than earlier Boeing’s and can maintain 6000 feet you FL430.


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