Norwegian 787 blows a donk in FCO
https://avherald.com/h?article=4cb6a09d&opt=0 A Norwegian Long Haul Boeing 787-8, registration LN-LND performing flight DY-7115 from Rome Fiumicino (Italy) to Los Angeles,CA (USA), was in the initial climb out of Rome's runway 16R when an engine (Trent 1000) failed emitting debris onto the ground below. The crew stopped the climb at 3000 feet, secured the engine and returned to Rome for a safe landing on runway 16R about 23 minutes after departure. The Mayor of Fiumicino reported 25 vehicles and 12 houses were damaged by debris falling off the aircraft, one man on the ground was hit too. The man was just frightened and remained uninjured however. Local residents reported glowing pieces of metal rained down in the hundreds. The airline reported the aircraft returned to Rome due to a technical problem. Italy's ANSV have dispatched investigators on site. Luckily nobody on the ground got killed. |
The RR engines (Rotating Rubbish...) have several restrictions on them. Many of them are cycle limited, and some versions have been restricted to ETOPS 138 instead of 180. I am sure this will place further restrictions on those junk engines. Rolls Royce and Boeing, not a great combination these days...
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This was an updated Package B engine... |
Originally Posted by Icejock
(Post 10542671)
This was an updated Package B engine... |
Originally Posted by Icejock
(Post 10542671)
This was an updated Package B engine... |
I guess in the strive for efficiency that reliability has taken a hit. The alternate engine has issues too pushing current technology to the limits, the GE90 on the 777 still has regular BUG failures after 25 years, as for the MAX and now A320NEO with their stab AFCS faults, the A350 computer resets every so many days, it all reminds me of working the L1011 Tristar in the 1990's. I am afraid it looks like we are now in an industry relying on backups rather than designing safety and reliability in to the airframes and engines in the first place. I think they call it safety risk assessment.
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From the various picture showing up this one seems to have pretty much disintegrated. Lucky that no-one got hurt. |
This is also the same basic engine on the A330-900 modified for bleed air. It’s the only engine option on the 900 so might impact sales on a already slow selling airframe. |
Originally Posted by Sailvi767
(Post 10542738)
This is also the same basic engine on the A330-900 modified for bleed air. It’s the only engine option on the 900 so might impact sales on a already slow selling airframe. RR have said the issues on the 787 engine are specific issues related to the airframe. There seems to be a good reason why the 747-8, 737MAX, A350, A320neo, A330neo, and 777X did not got “bleedless”. The energy needs to be extracted from the engine somehow. |
Originally Posted by swh
(Post 10542886)
RR have said the issues on the 787 engine are specific issues related to the airframe.
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There seems to be a good reason why the 747-8, 737MAX, A350, A320neo, A330neo, and 777X did not got “bleedless”. The energy needs to be extracted from the engine somehow. #14 (permalink) Dave Therhino's AvatarDave Therhino , 12th Aug 2019 05:00 The air quality seems no better (very dry) since Boeing updated the CAC schedules to minimise surging. Likewise with the electric brakes - they seem bulkier than their hydraulic equivalents and more prone to failure. Pros? Well, I'm a big fan of the dual engine start. |
This is also the same basic engine on the A330-900 modified for bleed air. It’s the only engine option on the 900 so might impact sales on a already slow selling airframe. |
A lot of folk deriding the engine without knowing what actually happened to cause it! Was it caused by FOD or a bird strike or a mechanical failure?
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Originally Posted by Out Of Trim
(Post 10543162)
A lot of folk deriding the engine without knowing what actually happened to cause it! Was it caused by FOD or a bird strike or a mechanical failure?
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Originally Posted by Out Of Trim
(Post 10543162)
A lot of folk deriding the engine without knowing what actually happened to cause it! Was it caused by FOD or a bird strike or a mechanical failure?
If this is a modified engine as somebody said, it’s really bad news for operators with these engines. Add the fact that engine pairs have about the same number of hours and I for one would be reluctant to go on an aircraft with these engines. The modifications are about fanblades/turbine blades? |
Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem
(Post 10543330)
Add the fact that engine pairs have about the same number of hours |
Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem
(Post 10543330)
I’ve never seen a birdstrike cause anything like this. Damage yes, but a spray of engine parts out the back? 25 houses and 12 cars damaged by falling parts. Norwegian says this is an ongoing investigation and doesn’t want to comment. If this is a modified engine as somebody said, it’s really bad news for operators with these engines. Add the fact that engine pairs have about the same number of hours and I for one would be reluctant to go on an aircraft with these engines. The modifications are about fanblades/turbine blades? |
Originally Posted by Porrohman
(Post 10543345)
The engine pairs don't necessarily have the same hours. There's currently a restriction on fitting two engines (of the type affected by the known problems) with more than a certain number of cycles on the same aircraft. This is for exactly the reason you are concerned about.
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Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem
(Post 10543347)
Where do they get old engines from? |
Originally Posted by Fursty Ferret
(Post 10543047)
Exactly. I'm not sure why Boeing went all-electric on the 787. I can see arguments for the cabin air supply, but taking 250kW from the IP turbine, rectifying it, and inverting it once again to drive the CACs surely outweighs the simple benefit of taking bleed air directly from the compressor.
The air quality seems no better (very dry) since Boeing updated the CAC schedules to minimise surging. Likewise with the electric brakes - they seem bulkier than their hydraulic equivalents and more prone to failure. Pros? Well, I'm a big fan of the dual engine start. |
I believe bleed air has to be cooled before entering the cabin, which under some conditions could condense some of the water content out resulting in the low humidity experienced (building air conditioning plants will cool air below the target and then warm it back up to ensure it isn't too humid). I'm guessing the 787 cabin compressors don't heat the air so much, so perhaps lose less moisture this way? But I can't imagine them carrying a tank of water to actively humidify the air?
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Originally Posted by Smooth Airperator
(Post 10543409)
No independent humidity tests have been conducted on the 787 or any other aircraft.
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787s have humidifiers for flight deck and crew rest air. Something like that is being done on the A350 and 777X as well, with humidification of first and business as on option. For the most part, the cabin experience is the same.
The colder the air, the less moisture it can hold, so if you cool air with nonzero relative humidity, the resulting air will have a higher relative humidity, which is why air conditioners have dehumidifiers. If you warm air, the result has a lower relative humidity. If the air outside is -40, heating it to room temperature is going to create a very dry environment that sucks the water out of you. This has nothing to do with bleed air or electrically heated. There's also the claim when the 380 and 787 were entering service that they're pressurized to 6000 feet, while previous gen ac are pressurized to 8000. I'll leave it to someone else to say how often their Cabin Alt climbs to 8000. |
Hasn't the claim been the humidity could be set higher because of the CFRP fuselage? Like less corrosion risk or similar?
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Given the issues with the Trent I'm surprised this has not caused more of a stir.
Was this a mechanical failure of the engine, a precautionary shutdown, or was there an external cause? |
Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem
(Post 10543330)
I’ve never seen a birdstrike cause anything like this. Damage yes, but a spray of engine parts out the back? 25 houses and 12 cars damaged by falling parts. Norwegian says this is an ongoing investigation and doesn’t want to comment. If this is a modified engine as somebody said, it’s really bad news for operators with these engines. Add the fact that engine pairs have about the same number of hours and I for one would be reluctant to go on an aircraft with these engines. The modifications are about fanblades/turbine blades? |
Originally Posted by Less Hair
(Post 10543724)
Hasn't the claim been the humidity could be set higher because of the CFRP fuselage? Like less corrosion risk or similar?
What they were able to do on the 787 - that hadn't been done previously - was have humidifiers to improve the humidity of the passenger (and crew) air. The carbon fiber construction meant there is no corrosion risk associated with that, but the ability to add humidifiers for passenger comfort has always been there - just seldom used. It's up to the operator as to if they bother to service the humidifiers with water between flights... BTW, for all the problems the Trent 1000 has been having, the current generation of engines is still an order of magnitude more reliable than what was available 40 years ago. Back then, people thought a shutdown every 10,000 hours was just fine, today a shutdown every 100,000 hours is cause for concern. |
Originally Posted by tdracer
(Post 10544194)
What they were able to do on the 787 - that hadn't been done previously - was have humidifiers to improve the humidity of the passenger (and crew) air
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787 Humidity
Zonal driers in the crown area stops the moisture from condensing out, it is then recirculated back into the cabin to keep the humidity level above 15%.
At least, thats the theory. Back to exploding engines.... |
Indeed it did have Godfrey engine driven compressors, just like the Viscount! The VC10 ones had variable output controlled by a slide valve which often leaked huge quantities of oil into the a/c ducting. Nothing new.... |
6000 foot cabin at what cruising altitude in a B787?
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Originally Posted by Jet Jockey A4
(Post 10544416)
6000 foot cabin at what cruising altitude in a B787?
All the way to the ceiling of 430 |
Originally Posted by Ian W
(Post 10543890)
Perhaps it was an ingested small UAS (aka drone) so a drone strike/mid-air collision, not a bird strike.
What was acceptable 40 years ago is not acceptable today. 180 minutes ETOPS with possible dodgy engines...😮 |
I think people are getting caught up in Boeing spin here, our 30 year old 757s regularly cruise along at 6000 feet cabin altitude but our 737s sit at 8000 at the same level. Both use standard engine bleed as far as I'm aware
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Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem
(Post 10544599)
When you have an engine with known issues and that engine starts to spew engine parts out the back, I lean towards a connection between the two. And that can mean really bad news for operators of these engines. If taking them off the aircraft for modifications doesn’t solve the problem... What was acceptable 40 years ago is not acceptable today. 180 minutes ETOPS with possible dodgy engines...😮 Big pieces typically equate to loose larger bits which often stem from the cooler parts in a turbine. I was under the impression that the earlier publizied problem was in the hot part of the turbine.So I remain neutral in picking a cause out of a news item. |
Originally Posted by lomapaseo
(Post 10544748)
Once again association does not equal causation.
Big pieces typically equate to loose larger bits which often stem from the cooler parts in a turbine. I was under the impression that the earlier publizied problem was in the hot part of the turbine.So I remain neutral in picking a cause out of a news item. |
I'm surprised how little factual information has been released about this incident, especially given the history of problems with the Trent on the 787. The only photo of the affected engine I could find had a large advertising board placed in front of it to try to prevent photos of the damage. Normally, by this stage, we would have seen photos of the damaged engine, know the variant of the engine, the number of cycles and hours it had done, and have some idea about what part of the engine had failed, even if the cause is still to be determined.
Twitter had this amusing observation; As avgeeks like @janlisiecki most likely know: BOEING = Bits Of Engines In Neighbor‘s Garden |
What about ANZ 787 that decided it needed to loose a few KG's on departure from AKL (I think it was) , didn't that shower the local community with fan blades? |
Originally Posted by OMAAbound
(Post 10545596)
What about ANZ 787 that decided it needed to loose a few KG's on departure from AKL (I think it was) , didn't that shower the local community with fan blades? It would be interesting to see pictures of the Norwegian FCO incident engine and how it compares to the ANZ one. Both sprayed parts out the back. https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2017/12/0...ed-787-engine# |
Originally Posted by Whitemonk Returns
(Post 10544624)
I think people are getting caught up in Boeing spin here, our 30 year old 757s regularly cruise along at 6000 feet cabin altitude but our 737s sit at 8000 at the same level. Both use standard engine bleed as far as I'm aware
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