return of pay2fly programs?
 

hi folks.
many friends reported that bs p2f is on the rise again. please post here the names of current p2f providers. would be good to stop the next wave. and what about the EU plans to ban it?
regards, aron

The "EU"?
Are you kidding?

I'm dead serious

list of former p2f providers?
 

a collection of some p2f co's... enjoy

https://www.cockpitseeker.com/wp-con...s/goodies/p2f/

Look what the "EU" has done to the FR dilemma.

NOTHING!!!

Some countries, e.g. NL, became active, but not the "EU".

EU is a toothless tiger IMHO.

Aronsha, that is a deeply troubling long list!

When I started out in '98 there was only the ubiquitous EagleJet... now... it has grown out of control, and to think we should have learnt from Kos.

Ehh all the EU rules are made with help of: the local CAA's, representatives of Unions and employers... So in other words: the people that are representing you either politically or as an employee.. So ALL the FTL's are written in full transparency... But I guess that they don't tell you that in the Daily Star? :hmm:

pure horror, stop p2f
 

just had a look on that list and fraudster MSD aviation is a part of it. my cousin lost his money with that company. is MSD still active?

some contracts accessible
 

My goodness. some of the original contracts are accessible. just have a look at MSD etc. that's how they earned money. curse you

Not to mention, the EU sets a limit at the low end. Countries can require higher limits. That said, working conditions apart from some very basic concepts (4 weeks of paid vacation per year, 8 days off per month for example) are not regulated by the EU, they are local laws decided by the relevant governments in each state. Especially laws governing the right to strike, or to build unions and what those unions can do differ wildly across the EU and are not unified in any form. P2F is such a practice that requires currently local laws to outlaw its use, although the social dialogue of the EU (on the insistence of ECA) is actually on that case, but the EU quite often works very slowly. Of course it doesn't help that unions representing pilots do not take part in the required international lobbying within brussels, like for example ver.di representing the orange pilots in germany.

Another variable to add is the pilot who accepts these conditions...

I had to laugh at the bare-faced cheek of Baltic Aviation Academy...

https://www.cockpitseeker.com/wp-con...e-training.pdf

WE ARE OFFERING: • Great chance to supplement Your Company’s budget with additional income, using our human resources: selected, recommended, checked students

Yes, the English is wonky but at least they are honest and straight to the point!

confair is ok
 

Confair is ok for FOs. For Cpts is a low salary. But 747

MSD? You mean Masadavia and CEO Kasana?

Lobbyism
 

What we need is a effective lobby against P2F. National authorities are too slow and outnumbered. Inefficient work and intentional hindering of measures to counteract P2F made way for locust airlines. Mostly low costers advantegous and making money on the back of their crews. P2F providers should be officially revealed in public. Economically not viable airlines would be cut from their vital lifeline. Healthy ones would survive with pilot salaries increasing.

I know Siddhartha Kasana
 

I know Kasana and his fraudster friends. They harmed a lot of people. Didn't knew that he's still working in this business. Just search for MSD Aviation on pprune and you'll find some interesting stuff.

eaglejet
 

Constantly receiving their ad mails but never registered on their website.

Obviously the self sufficient co-pilot training is hard to read:


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....d718fb14a7.png

You are right, but there is nothing to do to change this as long as there are pilots willing to pay to get ahead of others- with more experience and better qualified- that only care about themselves and give a dam about others and the pilot profession, their profession.

That is a long list
 

Good day.
Unfortunately P2F is still a severe issue in India.
In Europe it's different and for instance Avaaz is collecting signatures to bring a petition forward. EU commission shall deal with it. On the contrary I'm afraid it won't change in India soon. Many fresh graduates and little job opportunities. When masses aren't doing well and starving they don't have much incentives to handle these issues.

SKasana and MSD were big players in this dirty game. Rumors say he's somewhere in Europe. I think we can't bring P2F to an end but we can put some heavy obstacles in their way.

Oh common guys, stop crying about p2f! You decided to be a pilot, it's a hard job requires experience and a lot of steps to get into that. Why some company should pay for you - with a fresh CPL you're nothing in a commercial aviation, you don't have experience and nobody knows how good you're. Flying C150 is nothing with flying commercial jet, the common thing are physics laws and it has wings. In all professions you have to invest in yourself in the beggining. In the IT world you go though the additional ceritifcation courses and then you get a proper job. Being a doctor is more nightmare in financial view. So what the difference between IT, doctor or some other jobs?

I paid for my TR after CPL and now I've got almost 2000 hours and waiting for the LHS upgrade on bizjet. Other people I know who paid for B737/A320/ATR72 TR, went flying airlines, and now they've got 3000+ hours and also are in upgrade for captains (and somebody is already). But yeah, you can have your ideal principles and do annual 1h recurrents on Seneca to keep your MEP/IR rating and stil writing in Internet how life is hard. Yes, it's always easy to blame somebody or something in your fails, because then it's sort of not your fault. Because if you try and you fail then it's only you to blame. But let me brake this down for you - if you want something, you have to work hard, get used to it, it's all up to you!

I heard/read a lot of blames "Oh I spent 150k+ for my CPL, why should I spend 100k+ for my TR". First of all, If somebody spent 100k+ for the CPL in Europe, then I really doubt about his ability to make a proper desicions, because in EU you easily can get 0 to fATPL for 40-50k max. Second, TR costs you 15k-20k only for a popular B737/A320. And third, I lot of companies still provides bonds for TR or you can agreed on details. And fourth, there are a lot of different types of aircrafts, not only 320/380/737/777. Most of the "against p2f" people from my experience don't want to go for "smaller" aircrafts, but the pilot market for the Pilatus/Mustangs/Caravans/etc is big. Yeah, the salaries are smaller, but if you decided to go to aviation to earn money - you've chosen a wrong job.

Peace!

hi zloi.
p2f always means that some good pilots still wait for a job while some bad pilots fly due to large pockets full of money.
this isn't only unfair, it's also completely wrong. you seem to be some lucky guy with some good parents and I wish you the best. But you are part of this toxic system and as long as there are pilots to engage in this scheme our position towards employers will always be weak. Instead of acting against your own colleagues one should support each other and fight for better working conditions and salaries. What you really don't see are long term consequences. You paid for your TR to get the first job. Let's say in a couple of years one other guy pays more to make a TR and to kick you out of the company. Who is going to save you if it gets that perverted? Mom and daddy? Or an even bigger amount of money to buy you back into the company? That's ridiculous. The global market is growing and we need to fight for our rights. Cheers

there is no evidence only good pilots wait for a job and bad pilots fly, it can be viceversa

All my money I spent for flying I earned myself or borrowed in banks.

I'm not afraid of it because I already proved I'm a good pilot and my company knows I'm good and can rely on me. In case I need to find another pilot job I will be able to prove my theoretical and practical knoweldge based on my experience.

Also, to find a pilot job in EU having a Russian passport I had to go through a lot of paperworks to get a work permit which took me about 4 months, and I have to renew it every 2 years + some additional stuff I have to pay for which regular EU person even don't know (insurance for my children, other paperworks and so on). So when some EU resident who has free access to the whole Europe job market tells me he cannot find a job - I cannot do anything just laugh.

Exactly, it's growing and changing and it's a market with its own demands. 10 years ago companies paid for TR due to lack of pilots, now there are a lot of them. Don't be a dinosaur like taxi drivers against Uber. To get a good job you need to prove you're good. How can you do that without experience? Why you didn't ask company to pay for your PPL training?

The North America part may be true now but a couple of yearss ago Gulfstream International Airlines and Gulfstream Training Academy had a program where students paid for a 1900D typerating and 250 hours.

zloi, everybody pays for the studies first. but airlines are winning big on pilots' shoulders through P2F. from my point of view you're just trying to justify the your own actions but it's not working. to pay for LT or hours package is creating an unbalance between employer and amployee. And you're promoting unequal screening and working conditions.

And it's not true, that P2F students undergo the same procedures in a screening. Much easier to get onto right seat if not guaranteed. But is it safe for passengers and everybody else involved in operation? Doubt that. I guess there's a high number of undisclosed incidents / accidents invoked by P2F garbage.

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I read that MSD is active in Ireland now, but someone named Kay Wachtelborn is CEO.

TR costs 15-20k, for airlines even cheaper - it's just a fuel cost for 2-3 flights on 737/320. Not a big amount of money for the company to save.

as well as you try to justify from your side :)

There are no equal screening conditions, somebody will be always better than other. Any guy with 4k hrs in the same types of flights will have more experience than me with 2k hrs.

There are no stats, so it cannot be true or false sentence

I also found an interesting thread in this forum.
Just search for "LION AIR PLANE DOWN IN BALI" and go to page 29.

What do you think about pay2fly now?

I suggest you're referencing to the post about MSD company? So, first of all, before signing the contract you have to read it and check the facts and conditions. Second, lion air is a crap airline, I wouldn't go there if I get a free TR from them and definitely don't want to have this company in my CV. P2F doesn't mean you go for any first ****ty opportunity you get.

why are you advocating something that is obviously contraprodutive for the safety of the customers and adds to unequal competition between the pilots? it is an exclusive advantage for airlines with no scruples and wealthy new pilots!!

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found him on linkedin. he's listed as CEO at many companies, among them is Sky4u. according to Wikipedia they are also into pay2fly. you find them in the category brokers together with a partner named Intex-Aero.
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I'll post some screenshots

Kasana is the key for banning P2F in India. just searching for some partners like Kay Wachtelborn to identify his network.
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zloi, I can highly recommend the Wikipedia article about social dumping, if it's accessible from your part of the world. Now social dumping at a crap airline affects safety in a new dimension. Lion air is only one example but a critical one because it changed the way how people are looking on labor conditions in airline or transport business. Many other airlines will shut down and some healthy will survive. Social responsibility is the key

Search for "truth about MSD" in this forum

Look here...
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....d58369c7a0.jpg

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Kasana continued
 

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....0d54738ee3.jpg