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New AF/KLM CEO killing the one part of the company that makes money?
Interesting times in KLM/AF... The new CEO is trying to get full control of the company and in doing so creating big upsets @KLM at all levels as all the staff is behind the current CEO who has been doing a great job... That is interesting as the losses and problems are at the AF side. Get the popcorn out as it will become very nasty as the Dutch have learned from the french that striking is the way to get your way in KLM/AF.
The KLM/AF CEO is today in the Netherlands on a secret (!) mission to get the pilot union on his side.. |
Interesting times ahead...
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...nit-ceo-elbers |
"The new CEO is trying to get full control of the company" Is that strange? We could re-formulate like this: the dutch side does not want the group's CEO to control them. |
Originally Posted by fab777
(Post 10389713)
"The new CEO is trying to get full control of the company" Is that strange? We could re-formulate like this: the dutch side does not want the group's CEO to control them. and why do the french lose money? Hint: allergy to work > eager to strike. and no: im not in KLM, im flying for the LH group |
Originally Posted by sekmeth
(Post 10389827)
its not that! The dutch side knows that without a partner, KLM would be much smaller then it is today, what the dutch dont want, is to make up the losses from their french colleagues, leaving no money to invest in their own product. and why do the french lose money? Hint: allergy to work > eager to strike. and no: im not in KLM, im flying for the LH group |
If only it had been BA KLM.
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You only have to look at the comparison in operating results over the last 5 years to see why KLM employees would be unhappy at a change at the top. There have been big efforts across the company to get past the effects of the recession and fight off the unfair competition from further east. The person at the top in my opinion has been critical to this success so far. |
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Originally Posted by Hotel Tango
(Post 10389934)
The poster stated he/she worked for the LH Group. That does not mean he/she is LH crew! Don't confuse LH and the LH Group! Yes LH have had strikes, but other carriers within the group were not part of the industrial action.
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Originally Posted by sekmeth
(Post 10389827)
and why do the french lose money? Hint: allergy to work > eager to strike. thus you may drop that idea that french are just "lazy" (And also have a look at AF-KLM group's financial datas) |
Good to read such harmony among different countries and airlines of the EU.
Now do people see why 'ever closer union' won't work? |
Originally Posted by sudden twang
(Post 10389887)
If only it had been BA KLM.
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The parent company is considering replacing Elbers over concern he may not fully support plans to strengthen ties between the two carriers, which came together in a 2004 merger yet have long operated semi-independently and suffer a cultural divide. |
Originally Posted by sudden twang
(Post 10389887)
If only it had been BA KLM.
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Or should have stayed 'single', with SQ as an succesful example....
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Originally Posted by overfly
(Post 10390098)
Good to read such harmony among different countries and airlines of the EU.
Now do people see why 'ever closer union' won't work? The EU as an economical entity exposes deep problems in France, where yellow jerseys protest because the economy of France can not keep up with northern EU members. Makes this battle quite explosive, full of politics. |
I am not sure that you understand the yellow jerseys protest....
So, maybe better to keep on aviation facts and as said by fab777, look at AF-KLM group's financial data. Also, why KLM was never able to make any allainces in Europe: British Airways, Air Littoral, Alitalia and other ones that I do not remember. Oh, I know, this is because of the others, nothing to do with the Dutch culture! |
Being French myself but having worked in Holland for over 30 years, I can I believe understand both cultures. The Dutch should forget for a moment their natural sense of knowing everything better and perhaps look at what happened in the last decades to airlines in countries of similar size : Sabena, Swisair, Malev etc.. all gone. Without a successful merger they probably also be gone today. What the French should also put their natural senses of being a superior power ( a bit like the Brits :E) and stop treating the Dutch and KLM as inferiors . Without the KLM merger AF would also not be what it is today. The traditional AF milk cows of monopolies in both domestic and Outre-mer routes is no longer there. And the synergy of using 2 hubs SPL and CDG brings money to both airlines.
Today a Canadian , coming from outside Europe, wants to reshuffle the cards and probably is not bothered by national prides and only looks at both airlines as just departments of a larger company.. I cannot say this is a bad thing. per se. Egos bruised , oh yes, but is this the most important ?. |
Good point! But in recent years my company didnt strike. And its not that im against strikes. But it doesnt make sence to strike over a payrise while your company (not the holding) loses money.
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ATC Watcher nails it. Since the 'merger' took place not a great deal has changed and all the usual advantages of a merger have not been realised. When merging, the best is to action FAST. Push the two together and do the horrible job of making redundancies and cuts - THEN build something new and, hopefully, improved. If they do not change they will get taken over, however, SkyTeam cannot let them fail. Many fireworks before this is settled.
Countless large mergers fail because the two cultures will not merge or were not compatible in the first place. Daimler Chrysler for example threw away some $29 BILLION. The whole article (and others related to this huge waste of money) should be read by all at the top tables in KLM/AF (of course there is the problem - there should only be one top table): Harvard Business Review That Daimler can sell Chrysler as a more-or-less intact unit to a private equity firm tells you all you need to know about why the combination failed. The two organizations never were integrated into anything that approached a cohesive whole. The potential synergies that were used to justify the deal went unrealized. Why did this happen? Because the two organizations really didn’t like each other, and couldn’t cooperate to the extent necessary to make the combination work. Serious efforts to integrate the operations of Daimler and Chrysler foundered on lack of trust clashes between the mid-market cowboys of Detroit and the high-end knights of Stuttgart. The seeds of post-merger disintegration were sown early when it became obvious that a “merger of equals” was actually a takeover of Chrysler by Daimler. And there were unbridgeable differences in the cultures of the two organizations. As is too often the case in acquisitions, the synergies were all on the surface. |
Originally Posted by sekmeth
(Post 10390852)
Good point! But in recent years my company didnt strike. And its not that im against strikes. But it doesnt make sence to strike over a payrise while your company (not the holding) loses money.
A previous poster implied that only the Dutch side made efforts during the recession. Completely false - in fact it is quite the opposite. 10000 job losses in AF and near zero growth for many years (While KLM grew significantly) The comments about the French being lazy etc are I must say unhelpful... cheap shots that lead nowhere imho. |
IMO the #1 problem is not about "cultural differences"', but is a problem between the two persons. One of them seems to forever be the symbol of "AF and KL can never work closer together". I don't think AFKL can afford this situation. Elbers seems to have ended up in a very difficult spot. IMO at this point it does not matter how competent he is.
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In my (non-airline) experience cross-cultural company marriages always underestimate the tribal loyalties (its bad enough when two companies in the same country merge TBH)
If everyone goes around still carrying a French or Netherlands flag tattooed on their metaphorical foreheads you'll get nowhere. You have to see it as an opportunity - and the best way is to mix up the workforce as fast as possible IMHO Not very easy in rigid airline staffing structures |
Originally Posted by Asturias56
(Post 10391571)
.....the best way is to mix up the workforce as fast as possible IMHO. Not very easy in rigid airline staffing structures
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Originally Posted by Andy_S
(Post 10391587)
I guess that in those circumstances English would need to be the common language. I suspect that one part of the company would find that unacceptable.
just curious... |
Do you really have to ask? Hint, which country has their controllers speak in two different languages! |
As a group, the ATCOs in France wish for English RT in their airspace exactly the same as the visitors do.
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Originally Posted by Andy_S
(Post 10391587)
I guess that in those circumstances English would need to be the common language. I suspect that one part of the company would find that unacceptable.
But making the operational language English poses no major problem anymore I would say especially since the pure domestic pilots are long gone and language proficiency tests are now mandatory.. Anyway , first there are ways around it , and secondly rules can always be changed... This is why I look at the Canadian ideas with some interest.. ( and by the way , in Canada they also use 2 languages on the frequency .. .:E ) |
Well, can't be too bothered about all this. The way that KLM is being treated now by AF is exactly the
same as KLM treated Martinair in the past. A good running carrier being completely plundered by its parent company. Sounds familiar? Crying foul about this kind of practices by KLM employees is hypocritical. The French just copied KLM's behaviour. Transavia is another victim by the way. A small note about KLM's finances: its standalone revenue would never be as high without Air France's booking system and network. Stand-alone they would be very small indeed. |
Very fair comment ATC Watcher, as ever.
I was thinking of the operational language, but at every level of the company. This in response to the suggestion that to truly be a merged company, AF/KL should mix up the workforce. Maybe I'm being unfair, but the French government still have influence within Air France, and I imagine there would be some resistance to English being the operational language within a company seen as a French national champion? |
Originally Posted by Sailvi767
(Post 10391821)
Do you really have to ask? Hint, which country has their controllers speak in two different languages! |
This is why I look at the Canadian ideas with some interest.. ( and by the way , in Canada they also use 2 languages on the frequency .. .https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/evil.gif ) |
Long articles in both le Monde and Figaro newspapers yesterday , looks like Ben has got all what he wanted . in exchange for renewing KLM CEO, he got effective control of KLM by creating a CEO governance that include KLM CEO and AF CEO, the group Financial Director and Ben as chairman. So the articles say Ben gets control over operations, routes, fleet acquisition and strategy for BOTH airlines.
As a (unrelated) bonus he signed a agreement with AF SNPL for a 4% increase ( they wanted 10) and some guarantee for the future of AF , effectively ending all SNPL industrial actions. Not bad for an outsider ... |
Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
(Post 10396416)
Long articles in both le Monde and Figaro newspapers yesterday , looks like Ben has got all what he wanted . in exchange for renewing KLM CEO, he got effective control of KLM by creating a CEO governance that include KLM CEO and AF CEO, the group Financial Director and Ben as chairman. So the articles say Ben gets control over operations, routes, fleet acquisition and strategy for BOTH airlines.
As a (unrelated) bonus he signed a agreement with AF SNPL for a 4% increase ( they wanted 10) and some guarantee for the future of AF , effectively ending all SNPL industrial actions. Not bad for an outsider ... |
The Netherlands government has just announced that they have acquired a 12,68% stake in AFKL. This stake will further increase to 14%, so that it will be as large as the French govt stake in the company. The reason for this acquisition is apparently that the dutch interests in AFKL were not guaranteed, and to change this the shares were bought during last week. |
Love it! Didn't see that one coming.. Fighting fire with fire :E
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It seems the Dutch acted, actually not for best AFKL interest, perhaps they thought in favour of KLM "alone", and it seems without much consideration for what happens in the long term. Another possibility, as somebody else said, is that this was briefed and "agreed on" with the French - at the moment I think this is unlikely.
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Dutch increase stake in AF / KLM
BBC says:-
"France has reacted frostily to the Dutch government's sudden purchase of a 12.7% stake in Air France-KLM in attempt to counter French influence. Shares in the airline company fell almost 11% after the Netherlands government said late on Tuesday it was acting to protect "Dutch interests". The Dutch aim to match France's 14.3% stake in the airline. French Finance Minister Bruno Le Maire insisted the company should be "managed without national public interference". According to French reports, the government in Paris was informed of the Dutch move only an hour before a press conference on Tuesday night, and after the shares had been bought. A ministry source told AFP news agency the Dutch move was both "surprising" and "unfriendly", more in the manner of market traders than a state shareholder. Meanwhile, French President Emmanuel Macron said the Dutch government should "clarify its intentions". What the Dutch say"Buying this stake ensures we have a seat at the table," Dutch Finance Minister Wopke Hoekstra said of the move, which cost about 680m (£583m; $774m).The justification, he said, was to protect Dutch economic interests and jobs - particularly regarding Amsterdam's Schiphol airport. Schiphol is Europe's third busiest airport after London Heathrow and Paris Charles de Gaulle." |
this was briefed and "agreed on" with the French - at the moment I think this is unlikely. Anyway more State involvement is exactly what the new AF/KL CEO wanted to move away from in France , and now that the Dutch State jumped in , this is unlikely to happen . Result the AF share lost 11% today. Bravo ! |
Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
(Post 10402234)
It was definitively not agreed , French President Macron talked this evening about an hostile move while the Economy minister Le Maire talks about an unfriendly attack. which took everyone by surprise.
Anyway more State involvement is exactly what the new AF/KL CEO wanted to move away from in France , and now that the Dutch State jumped in , this is unlikely to happen . And with the French state not reducing their stake, the only option was to buy, if the Dutch wanted to, at least, neutralise the French influence. Result the AF share lost 11% today. Bravo ! |
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