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-   -   Pilot shortage - myth or reality? (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/617740-pilot-shortage-myth-reality.html)

boofhead 4th Jun 2019 01:22


Originally Posted by A320LGW (Post 10485672)
The more difficult it is for new entrants to come in the better it is for current pilots, basic supply and demand.

I ain't complaining ...

That is short sighted. If there are not enough pilots then companies will shrink or go out of business, leading to a job shortage which might leave YOU out to dry.

bafanguy 4th Jun 2019 08:44

I guess we can all relax now and consider the pilot "shortage" solved. The government is on the case:

"The Air Force and the FAA have announced a collaborative effort to counter the national aircrew shortage, May 31."

FAA Announces Partnership With Air Force | Aero-News Network

yoko1 4th Jun 2019 11:26

There is no shortage of pilots. There is a shortage of airlines who wish to pay what a pilot is truly worth.

A320LGW 4th Jun 2019 13:43


Originally Posted by boofhead (Post 10485905)
That is short sighted. If there are not enough pilots then companies will shrink or go out of business, leading to a job shortage which might leave YOU out to dry.

That won't happen, right before an airline calls it quits someone will come up with the crazy idea of actually training the pilots they need so bad to stay in business.

Airlines have had it too comfy cos fools like us paid for our training ... tables must turn.

bafanguy 4th Jun 2019 21:03


Originally Posted by yoko1 (Post 10486222)
There is no shortage of pilots. There is a shortage of airlines who wish to pay what a pilot is truly worth.

On a related note, here's another media example of pilot "shortage". I'd suggest this isn't a pilot shortage but a management shortage:

https://japantoday.com/category/busi...pilot-shortage

Nick 1 4th Jun 2019 21:17

Pilot shortage ? Hal9000 will take care ...
“ Airbus Accelerates AI Ahead Of Looming Pilot Shortage
Guy Norris
As the civil aerospace industry looks increasingly to artificial intelligence (AI) to help improve safety standards, and amid the looming potential for a global pilot shortage, Airbus is stepping up research into autonomous systems and the potential for single-pilot operations.
As part of these efforts, the manufacturer has created Airbus AIGym, a platform that is being used to evaluate the use of AI and machine learning to tackle real issues across the enterprise—including autonomous systems for the flight deck. Through the initiative, Airbus is encouraging research in specific areas such as speech recognition by issuing a series of challenges that are open to companies, research laboratories, academia and individuals.
The air traffic control (ATC) speech-recognition challenge, which closed late in 2018, will be followed shortly by another aimed at devising AI systems capable of identifying and recognizing taxiway signs. The work supports the development of autonomous taxiing capability and is designed to feed into the company’s Automated Takeoff and Landing (ATTOL) demonstration program, which is planned for flight tests in the mid-2020s. The project is intended to leverage computer vision technologies and techniques to enable an aircraft to navigate and detect obstacles during taxi, takeoff, approach and landing.
“How do we reduce the workload on pilots as airspace becomes more congested? How do we continuously improve safety and cope with the envisioned shortage of pilots?” asks Airbus Chief Technology Officer Grazia Vittadini. “Today we have 200,000 type-rated commercial pilots. If we apply market projections, we will have around 50,000 aircraft in service after 2037. That means we will need 600,000 pilots over the next 20 years.”
The threat of an industry-wide pilot shortage is “pushing us toward automated systems with the alternate ambition to go for autonomy powered by artificial intelligence,” says Vittadini. “That’s a challenge not to be underestimated, especially for certification. The certification of systems based on nondeterministic inputs is not trivial. It is a page of aviation we have not yet written, but we are starting to write it now with partners and regulators,” she explains.
Airbus believes areas such as communications and navigation represent early potential opportunities for AI to support or supplement current cockpit tasks. The recently concluded contest to develop ATC speech recognition, for example, focused on areas such as standard audio transcription and call-sign extraction and produced “tangible results” from 25 finalists, says Vittadini. “But it is just the beginning, and we are about to launch another challenge along those lines to identify and recognize taxiway signs,” she notes.
In a related area, Airbus Defense and Space already is working with mobility provider ZF Friedrichshafen to enhance an autonomous system for self-driving cars and self-positioning vehicles using ground-control points calculated using Airbus-derived satellite data. For the work in Germany, the positioning information is being combined with lidar and radar data provided by ZF sensors.
Autonomous sense-and-avoid system technology for ATTOL is being developed by Wayfinder, a project spun out of the Silicon Valley-based Airbus A3 team working on the Vahana electric vertical-takeoff-and-landing demonstrator. “Wayfinder is developing machine learning and one of the bricks of the more automated and autonomous systems work for ATTOL,” says Vittadini.
“We plan to solve the most challenging problems in developing scalable, certifiable autonomy systems to power self-piloted aircraft applications throughout Airbus, from small urban air taxis like Vahana to large commercial airplanes,” Wayfinder's director of engineering, Alex Naiman, says in a recent blog post.
Describing the individual challenge areas as technology “bricks” that will provide the foundation for future demonstrations and development, Vittadini says that beyond the ATTOL program lies the company’s longer-term ambition to create a reduced-crew aircraft and, ultimately, a fully autonomous aircraft. But she cautions that it will take a long time to reach these targets.
“Let’s not forget it took us 60 years to go from four-crew cockpits to two-crew, so we won’t get there anytime soon,” Vittadini notes. “But yes, it is an ambition and we have planned the steps. So we will go from ATTOL to reduced-crew operations in which we can have single-pilot operations in certain phases of flight such as during cruise.”
The initiative is supported by work on a “Disruptive Cockpit” simulator at the company’s Toulouse headquarters. Developed as part of Europe’s Clean Sky 2 research program, the project is focused on demonstrating new functions, computing resources and communications. These include cockpit procedure automation, pilot-monitoring systems such as eye-tracking, head-worn displays, ground collision avoidance, new navigation sensors, voice-recognition systems for communications with ATC and airline operations, multimodal integration for flight crew interfaces, tactile head-mounted instruments and image-based landing systems.
“The flight deck is accessible; we are testing it with our own test pilots and customers. It’s a journey and a long journey, but safety is first, and we will take it step by step,” Vittadini adds. “We are already testing different bricks of a possible single-pilot operation in our enhanced multicrew cockpit where we study what it would mean in cruise to have the copilot resting in his or her seat and an active captain in the left seat. So we are studying several potential combinations of solutions “


cumulustratus 4th Jun 2019 22:13


Originally Posted by boofhead (Post 10485905)
That is short sighted. If there are not enough pilots then companies will shrink or go out of business, leading to a job shortage which might leave YOU out to dry.

So in your scenario:

Airline Middle Manager: "Big Boss CEO, we are in trouble! We have a fleet of 200 aircraft, but only pilots to cover 150 of them!"

Big Boss CEO: "That's unfortunate! Let's fire 33% of the workforce and get rid of 100 aircraft. Solved!" *mike drop gesture*

Airline Middle Manager: *teary eyed slow clap*

Anyone else see the flaw in this reasoning?

TFE731 5th Jun 2019 06:41


Originally Posted by A320LGW (Post 10486302)
That won't happen, right before an airline calls it quits someone will come up with the crazy idea of actually training the pilots they need so bad to stay in business.

Airlines have had it too comfy cos fools like us paid for our training ... tables must turn.

I doubt it. Right before the airline calls quits it will be way too late to start a pilot training program.

Harley Quinn 5th Jun 2019 11:32

Luckily Icelandair are releasing a bunch of guys, something to do with grounded 737s.

CurtainTwitcher 6th Jun 2019 00:33


Originally Posted by Nick 1 (Post 10486573)
Pilot shortage ? Hal9000 will take care ...
, Vittadini says that beyond the ATTOL program lies the company’s longer-term ambition to create a reduced-crew aircraft and, ultimately, a fully autonomous aircraft. But she cautions that it will take a long time to reach these targets.
“Let’s not forget it took us 60 years to go from four-crew cockpits to two-crew, so we won’t get there anytime soon,” Vittadini notes. “But yes, it is an ambition and we have planned the steps. So we will go from ATTOL to reduced-crew operations in which we can have single-pilot operations in certain phases of flight such as during cruise.”
The initiative is supported by work on a “Disruptive Cockpit” simulator at the company’s Toulouse headquarters. Developed as part of Europe’s Clean Sky 2 research program, the project is focused on demonstrating new functions, computing resources and communications. These include cockpit procedure automation, pilot-monitoring systems such as eye-tracking, head-worn displays, ground collision avoidance, new navigation sensors, voice-recognition systems for communications with ATC and airline operations, multimodal integration for flight crew interfaces, tactile head-mounted instruments and image-based landing systems.
“The flight deck is accessible; we are testing it with our own test pilots and customers. It’s a journey and a long journey, but safety is first, and we will take it step by step,” Vittadini adds. “We are already testing different bricks of a possible single-pilot operation in our enhanced multicrew cockpit where we study what it would mean in cruise to have the copilot resting in his or her seat and an active captain in the left seat. So we are studying several potential combinations of solutions “


The interesting question is that as this thinking becomes more widely diffused and talked about across the industry, will it influence the decision to take the high degree of financial risk to undertake training with the fear that HAL will be coming to take your future job or your pay?

The industry is put in a bind by this type of research, it may actually exacerbate the problem by generating a self fulfilling prophecy. It's not hard to find examples where technology has had a significant determent to employment and renumeration (Uber and Lyft has decimating the global Taxi industry). As software moves up the "human stack" and eats it, humans may choose not to play.

White Knight 6th Jun 2019 17:08


Originally Posted by Nick 1
where we study what it would mean in cruise to have the copilot resting in his or her seat and an active captain in the left seat. So we are studying several potential combinations of solutions “

Well, B*gger Me. We do that already! It’s called ‘controlled rest’🙄🙄

Amazingly sometimes the Captain rests in his or her seat and there is an active FO or Captain in the right seat!!!!!!!!

bafanguy 11th Jun 2019 11:56

Most all of the articles about the impending shortage just restate the same info. Here's the latest example:

https://aviationvoice.com/pilot-hung...-201906101447/

rigpiggy 12th Jun 2019 03:15

Yet very few articles cover the financial and human costs to being a pilot 42k yr for a 1st yr mainline. Piffle, i am in corporate now and loving it. Last year i was away probably 100 days and making the same as a 10 yr regional captain.

A320LGW 12th Jun 2019 23:10


Originally Posted by bafanguy (Post 10491185)
Most all of the articles about the impending shortage just restate the same info. Here's the latest example:

https://aviationvoice.com/pilot-hung...-201906101447/

The aviation voice is owned by the aviasolutions group. The aviasolutions group also own BAA flight academy. See where this is going?

The same "publication" (put in quotation marks because it is a charade masquerading as a professional magazine) also ranked BAA as the 3rd best and largest school in Europe and subsequently the world ... how surprising.

Rated De 12th Jun 2019 23:18


Originally Posted by A320LGW (Post 10492428)
The aviation voice is owned by the aviasolutions group. The aviasolutions group also own BAA flight academy. See where this is going?

The same "publication" (put in quotation marks because it is a charade masquerading as a professional magazine) also ranked BAA as the 3rd best and largest school in Europe and subsequently the world ... how surprising.

Well done.

Nothing more important than checking source and motivation.

737crew 17th Jun 2019 06:51

There's no pilot shortage
 
Totally crap. Projections and surveys only show what Airbus and Boeing want to show. So many pilots unemployed at the moment. Many of them with experience on jet. It is totally sufficient to keep the rates for new pilots adjusted for short term demands and older pilots that retire.

YRP 18th Jun 2019 03:24

One data point: there is an instructor shortage at flight schools in Canada, to the point that they don't have enough to do ab initio training. Instructors are getting hired up by the likes of Jazz.

Global_Global 18th Jun 2019 11:37


So many pilots unemployed at the moment. Many of them with experience on jet.
Interesting.... The only people we find are people that are rejected for a reason or have been rejected by us.. We had to support an airline with crew and only got people with medical issues, "interesting" CV's, crap IFR skills in the sim, non existent CRM skills, people who lied about their hours, people flown with certain eastern european P2F airlines who were needed more untraining than training, etc... Can you please tell me where these "MANY" are hiding? :8

If you are unemployed in the current market there is generally a reason for it... Either do something about it or maybe start another career.. If you can't find a job now you will definitely not find a job when the next recession hits. Sorry :(

CaptainProp 18th Jun 2019 12:20


Originally Posted by Global_Global (Post 10496552)

If you are unemployed in the current market there is generally a reason for it... Either do something about it or maybe start another career.. If you can't find a job now you will definitely not find a job when the next recession hits. Sorry :(

Hit the nail on the head.

CP

bafanguy 18th Jun 2019 13:23


Originally Posted by KT1988 (Post 10496584)
But its impossible to understand how the airlines choose who they call and when. For most getting the call was harder to achieve than passing the actual assessment.

KT,

Yes, this is apparently a universal lament. I can't explain what appears to be irrational except to guess that there must still be pervasive subjectivity in this process despite all the claims that infallible HR "science" has been applied at every step.


migg48 23rd Jun 2019 21:41

I retired recently from an air carrier. I am flying, part time, in a CJ4 and a King Air. I am offered jobs every week, as are most of my friends. Perhaps I am in an unusually busy market (SoCal), but I’m telling you, pilots, including young pilots, are moving up.

Rated De 28th Jun 2019 08:58


That will take the company "on the way to possibly one day achieve the single-pilot operation target we are aiming at," she told CNBC at the Innovfest Unbound conference in Singapore.
Possibly, one day, maybe having consulted all the relevant stakeholders, circled the wagons, pushed the envelope, built the knowledge base, provided directional leadership...

All spin, helping to soothe the increasingly frayed nerves of HR/IR 'managers' in airlines the world over, as the reality of a pilot shortage means the decades long IR games relied upon no longer work.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/comp...cto/ar-AADx30d

KT1988 28th Jun 2019 11:02

@Global_Global: May I ask what is the definition of ""interesting" CV's" because all the other weak spots were obvious but I wondered what is an "interesting CV" that is reviewed as bad ? Also do airline employers wish only a CV with stuff related to flying or do they wish the whole story including schools, university, jobs before aviation etc. ?

Aso 28th Jun 2019 12:00

""interesting" CV's" Where do I start? OK: Lay outs that are from the time DOS and matrix printers where top of the bill, data not matching stories, Medicals that were not up to date, schools that did not exist (!), people fired and with a negative reference, people with level 6 from France and Italy that could not type a readable cover letter in basic English, people that worked for 3 airlines in 7 to 8 months, people with hours not matching age, people that did not put anything about their hours on their aviation CV and the best one the CV that was 50% covered with a photo of a Tom Cruise look a like with 4 bars on his shoulders and only 250 hours on his CV :p

But again: if you don't have a job in the current market go out and spend some money on one of the interview training companies and / or make sure you stay current on your basic flying skills.. And maybe accept that you are not hired for a reason and stop blaming "the industry".. :cool: The fact that you past some exams doesnt mean you are "the right stuff" the airlines are looking for. Even in a market with ever lowering standards..:ouch:

misd-agin 28th Jun 2019 18:26

Interview with log book review. "These the original logbooks? Accurate times?" etc, etc. Candidate says yes. Interviewer - that's interesting - the 'original logbooks' were produced years after you starting logging 'real' time in them.

In the U.S., at the major airline level, the majority want ALL jobs after college. One major airline wants ALL jobs starting in high school. ALL jobs - flying or not flying related. As one candidate said "I didn't put it down because it was just a restaurant job during college." "What did you do there? For how long?" "I was the manager for the last two years." Wait a minute, you're 21-22 yrs old and you're the MANAGER of a large national chain restaurant in college?!?!!? That's impressive. No, it has nothing to do with flying but it shows a lot about drive, focus, maturity, etc, etc, at a young age.

While not a 'job' I recommended one candidate put down ALL his college activities down. It explained why he switched colleges and took longer to graduate - Div III football player. Home sick and transferred to a community college (poor and couldn't afford college). Worked at a local job. Got a Div I baseball offer. Play the first year as a walk on, if he's successful there'd be a scholarship the next year. So he scrambled to find the money....played, and before the next season the coach said "uh....about that scholarship....", so back to local community college he went. Eventually got his degree after he started flying. He had drive and didn't have much support ($$$) trying to pursue his goals. It's impressive talking to people who had a hard path to achieve their goals.

av8sean 29th Jun 2019 02:35

Half true
 
North America there is a shortage. Asia is hit and miss. EU not.

This is partly due to the stronger economy in North America and Asia versus Europe, and the employment culture. It's absolutely pathetic that European pilots and citizens allow pilots to work under subcontracts from Ireland, self employment, etc. The American unions learned their lessons from subcontracting to regional airlines after 9/11 but it was never to the extreme you see in Europe now. The constant churn of bogus work contracts will continue to undermine the job market.

In Asia, they are limited by the experience level of the current pilot workforce. This will eventually work itself out, and it's probably an amazing time to be a millennial pilot in Asia. Airlines in East Asia who can afford to send students to North America to training will be fine, Southeast Asian airlines can always get expat captains and rich locals who's parents finance their training.

The North America market is still the strongest. Retirement numbers, union rules, and FAA limits for commerical pilots will keep pay going higher. We are already at the point where a CRJ captain in North America makes more than a 787 LCC pilot in Europe. And with more days off.

Aso 30th Jun 2019 12:17


EU not
Err let's rephrase that: shortage the biggest in both US and Asia. In Europe there is a shortage but just smaller... All the good guys and girls are gone and we are now debating how low we want our standards to go.. :ouch: That is the signal of a shortage to me :8

737crew 5th Jul 2019 22:04

Shortage is reality
 
And shortage means lack of good experienced pilots. Most young cadets lack the necessary skills required to command an aircraft.
Training is getting cheaper (see east European flight schools) but at the same time more extra modules like APS MCC, JOT or even self sponsored type ratings are required to land the first job. What the industry basically needs is a further consolidation. Then ticket prices get higher, salaries will increase and in the end the training will improve and will be provided in full by the employer again. What can be expected if tickets are still available for 10 bucks? Nothing! We have one of the most demanding and specialized jobs in the world and are paid less than a cab driver. I know a pizza chef who gets double the amount that my former coworkers get. And we're all captains. Sad but true. Think about that

Meester proach 6th Jul 2019 03:32


Originally Posted by av8sean (Post 10505146)
North America there is a shortage. Asia is hit and miss. EU not.

This is partly due to the stronger economy in North America and Asia versus Europe, and the employment culture. It's absolutely pathetic that European pilots and citizens allow pilots to work under subcontracts from Ireland, self employment, etc. The American unions learned their lessons from subcontracting to regional airlines after 9/11 but it was never to the extreme you see in Europe now. The constant churn of bogus work contracts will continue to undermine the job market.

In Asia, they are limited by the experience level of the current pilot workforce. This will eventually work itself out, and it's probably an amazing time to be a millennial pilot in Asia. Airlines in East Asia who can afford to send students to North America to training will be fine, Southeast Asian airlines can always get expat captains and rich locals who's parents finance their training.

The North America market is still the strongest. Retirement numbers, union rules, and FAA limits for commerical pilots will keep pay going higher. We are already at the point where a CRJ captain in North America makes more than a 787 LCC pilot in Europe. And with more days off.


Really, so American regional pilots are not sleeping in crewrooms anymore because the pay is so bad ? I’d be interested to know what your mythical CRJ captain makes

bafanguy 6th Jul 2019 10:26


Originally Posted by Meester proach (Post 10510893)
I’d be interested to know what your mythical CRJ captain makes

US regional captain pay listed here:

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/regional



hans brinker 7th Jul 2019 00:54


Originally Posted by Meester proach (Post 10510893)



Really, so American regional pilots are not sleeping in crewrooms anymore because the pay is so bad ? I’d be interested to know what your mythical CRJ captain makes

Senior captain at republic will easily make $150K, third year around $90K. Seen plenty of posts talking about making less than €10K/month in the EU on long haul as PIC.

CaptainProp 7th Jul 2019 20:57

Yes but direct entry captains, or newly upgraded captains, in a US regional does not make that sort of money the first few years. A long haul captain with Virgin, BA, KLM, Air France, LH, Virgin, Swiss etc etc makes a lot more than €10k / month. The ones making €10K / month are possibly more like Norwegian long haul or HiFly.

CP

hans brinker 7th Jul 2019 21:04


Originally Posted by CaptainProp (Post 10512400)
Yes but direct entry captains, or newly upgraded captains, in a US regional does not make that sort of money the first few years. A long haul captain with Virgin, BA, KLM, Air France, LH, Virgin, Swiss etc etc makes a lot more than €10k / month. The ones making €10K / month are possibly more like Norwegian long haul or HiFly.

CP




Originally Posted by av8sean (Post 10505146)
North America there is a shortage. Asia is hit and miss. EU not.

The North America market is still the strongest. Retirement numbers, union rules, and FAA limits for commerical pilots will keep pay going higher. We are already at the point where a CRJ captain in North America makes more than a 787 LCC pilot in Europe. And with more days off.

​​​​​​​fillerfiller

vp89 21st Aug 2019 10:53

Dear All,

Interesting discussion going on about the pilot shortage and their salaries. Just to add some fuel to the fire here is a quick observation: Eurowings, Aerlingus, LOT, even Ryanair have stopped their recruitments recently, while WizzAir and a bunch of other airlines (interestingly, all European) are reducing pace of recruitment. Do they predict approaching another financial crisis? Is it lack of passenger numbers growth at Europe? Is the pilot market so overloaded that the companies simply form a non-ending database of available pilots and call them whenever they are needed? It is a very interesting situation now in Europe...

Best regards,
vp89

paul_v1 21st Aug 2019 12:07


Originally Posted by vp89 (Post 10550578)
Dear All,

Interesting discussion going on about the pilot shortage and their salaries. Just to add some fuel to the fire here is a quick observation: Eurowings, Aerlingus, LOT, even Ryanair have stopped their recruitments recently, while WizzAir and a bunch of other airlines (interestingly, all European) are reducing pace of recruitment. Do they predict approaching another financial crisis? Is it lack of passenger numbers growth at Europe? Is the pilot market so overloaded that the companies simply form a non-ending database of available pilots and call them whenever they are needed? It is a very interesting situation now in Europe...

Best regards,
vp89

Its just the end of the summer, every year the same. I saw you mentioned wizz, well wizz is again on PIlot open days in Greece, Romania, UK, Dubai etc.


Ian W 21st Aug 2019 18:35


Originally Posted by vp89 (Post 10550578)
Dear All,

Interesting discussion going on about the pilot shortage and their salaries. Just to add some fuel to the fire here is a quick observation: Eurowings, Aerlingus, LOT, even Ryanair have stopped their recruitments recently, while WizzAir and a bunch of other airlines (interestingly, all European) are reducing pace of recruitment. Do they predict approaching another financial crisis? Is it lack of passenger numbers growth at Europe? Is the pilot market so overloaded that the companies simply form a non-ending database of available pilots and call them whenever they are needed? It is a very interesting situation now in Europe...

Best regards,
vp89

Or has the internal and external market suddenly been flooded with Max8 crews who are taking up all the slack for the time being?


GrandPrix 22nd Aug 2019 13:38

Employers that pay poorly = shortage.
Employers that pay well = surplus.

3MTA3 23rd Aug 2019 11:11

To add to GrandPrix's comment:

Pilots: shortage
Panel operators : surplus

MD83FO 24th Aug 2019 15:09

anyone foresee US Mayors hiring DECs ?

bafanguy 24th Aug 2019 17:45


Originally Posted by MD83FO (Post 10553265)
anyone foresee US Mayors hiring DECs ?

Nope. Not at a major if the pilots have a union contract. The regionals are different animals even with a union contract.


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