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-   -   Convair 340 (C-131D) ZS-BRV crash Pretoria, South Africa (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/610956-convair-340-c-131d-zs-brv-crash-pretoria-south-africa.html)

Hotel Tango 14th Jul 2018 10:33


The Conquest craft looks like it has been converted to a CV-580?
Better inform the FAA quick, they have it as an C-131F ;)

A Squared 14th Jul 2018 17:39


Originally Posted by Hotel Tango (Post 10193554)
However, it was reported in several publications as having been converted to an CV-340.

Is that even possible? I'm not a Convair expert but I seem to recall that a 340 had a longer wing than the 240.

A Squared 14th Jul 2018 18:10


Originally Posted by Hotel Tango (Post 10196433)
Better inform the FAA quick, they have it as an C-131F ;)

The plane in the photo is obviously a piston Convair, but looking in the FAA aircraft registration database doesn't necessarily tell you whether a plane is a 580, a 580 will still be registered as a CV340, or CV440. For aircraft certification purposes, a 580 isn't an aircraft type, it's an STC modification.

A Squared 14th Jul 2018 18:48


Originally Posted by aterpster (Post 10193859)
As to single-engine performance just after lift-off, it was problematic. There was no requirement to meet a OEI takeoff flight path when these airplanes were certified.

The 240 was certified under CAR 4b, effective 1946. that version of the CAR contained a requirement for OEI performance CAR 4b.116.

MarkerInbound 15th Jul 2018 21:00


Originally Posted by aterpster (Post 10195107)
You were able to comply with 121.189?

We operated piston Convairs under part 121, we had to meet 121.177.

GordonR_Cape 15th Jul 2018 21:21

Link posted on the internet of a remarkable video from a light aircraft showing the last minutes of this flight. Image quality is limited, but confirms that it was struggling to hold altitude before crashing:

Trossie 15th Jul 2018 21:47

From what someone has posted here, the density altitude would have been about 5,700 ft. That would not be good for performance on a limited performance aeroplane. That was a long way that they struggled with it.

4 Holer 15th Jul 2018 21:48

Very sad indeed. FYI United States FAA SFP ( Ferry Permit ) for aircraft that size not on FAA121 AOC/Ops specs. Essential crew only ( 3 max ) plus mechanic all must hold FAA license, this old machine seems was a straight out ferry candidate only. Read she was carrying 19 pax and gear maybe 2000kg I guess to much at her age at 5700 foot field elevation. I hope all are recovering quickly, looks like crew did the best with what they were given.

aterpster 16th Jul 2018 00:18


Originally Posted by MarkerInbound (Post 10197521)


We operated piston Convairs under part 121, we had to meet 121.177.

Good catch! I am jet oriented.

Capt Fathom 16th Jul 2018 00:34


Image quality is limited, but confirms that it was struggling to hold altitude before crashing
Not sure you can tell that from the video, but it certainly had plenty of speed. Passed that C172/182 like it was standing still!

Perhaps that smoking engine was still producing power at that stage?

Dan_Brown 16th Jul 2018 06:10

Yes the crew certainly put up a good fight. The real reason all? got out alive, is they seemed to have hit the ground "under control", therefore not stalled. A lesson for us all. Unfortunatly the TAS/ground speed would have been high, considering the D.A.

The Ancient Geek 16th Jul 2018 10:41

With both pilots alive they should be able to give a good account of what happened to the enquiry, they should be out of hospital soon. There may well be other contributing factors such as problems with the gear or flaps.

Capt Fathom 16th Jul 2018 11:38


they should be out of hospital soon
If current media reports are true, both pilots are still in induced comas, and unlikely to be out of hospital any time soon.
When they do come around, I’d be surprised if they remember anything that happened that day.


aterpster 16th Jul 2018 12:36


Originally Posted by A Squared (Post 10196723)
The 240 was certified under CAR 4b, effective 1946. that version of the CAR contained a requirement for OEI performance CAR 4b.116.

Did that require a regulatory-defined takeoff flight path to clear all terrain and obstacles to a specified altitude?

MarkerInbound 16th Jul 2018 14:21

No, CAR 4 and the current part 25 are only certification rules that set certain performance requirements. CAR 4 required rates of climb that were a function of stall speed. FAR 25 requires set climb gradients. At least in the USA part 121 requires the operator to work backwards from the manufacturer's performance data to insure obstacle clearance taking into consideration current conditions.

A Squared 16th Jul 2018 15:04


Originally Posted by aterpster (Post 10198007)
Did that require a regulatory-defined takeoff flight path to clear all terrain and obstacles to a specified altitude?

CAR4b-116 defines the takeoff path segments and CAR4-b.120 specifies the OEI takeoff performance. Why is it so astonishing to you that an aircraft certificated in the transport category for airline operations post WWII ans operated by airlines has OEI takeoff performance?

A Squared 16th Jul 2018 15:08


Originally Posted by MarkerInbound (Post 10198108)
CAR 4 required rates of climb that were a function of stall speed. FAR 25 requires set climb gradients.

True, but a climb rate specified as a ratio of speed equates to a gradient, even though the gradient isn't stated explicitly.

aterpster 16th Jul 2018 15:20


Originally Posted by A Squared (Post 10198138)
CAR4b-116 defines the takeoff path segments and CAR4-b.120 specifies the OEI takeoff performance. Why is it so astonishing to you that an aircraft certificated in the transport category for airline operations post WWII ans operated by airlines has OEI takeoff performance?

Not astonished at all. Just trying to learn something about the piston era.

A Squared 16th Jul 2018 15:39


Originally Posted by aterpster (Post 10198146)
Not astonished at all. Just trying to learn something about the piston era.

OK, it seemed to me like you were resisting the notion, which seemed surprising coming from someone from the era when seeing Convairs, DC-6's and the like flying for the airlines was pretty common.

aterpster 16th Jul 2018 16:43


Originally Posted by A Squared (Post 10198164)
OK, it seemed to me like you were resisting the notion, which seemed surprising coming from someone from the era when seeing Convairs, DC-6's and the like flying for the airlines was pretty common.

When I went to work for TWA in early 1964, they were still flying the Connie. I just missed being a F/E on it. 3 years later I just missed it for my initial captain upgrade. So, I was not exposed to piston planning and performance. TWA had retired the Martin before I came aboard, which would be the closet to the Convair twins.

Before I learned to fly I rode on UAL's DC-6s several times. I didn't have a clue about the airspace or airway structure at the time. I do recall riding from Stapleton to Burbank one Spring (1955) afternoon. There were peaks higher than us on both sides somewhere in the Rockies. The cu was building around us. Suddenly, we were solid IMC and the g-load increased until we popped out going eastbound. That was a learning experience.


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