July 1, 2018. Airbus now owns a 50.01% majority stake in C Series Aircraft Limited
The closing of the previously announced C Series transaction between Airbus SAS, a wholly-owned subsidiary of Airbus SE (EPA: AIR), Bombardier Inc. (TSX: BBD.B) and Investissement Québec came into effect on July 1, 2018.
Airbus now owns a 50.01% majority stake in C Series Aircraft Limited Partnership, while Bombardier and Investissement Québec own approximately 34% and 16% respectively. CSALP’s head office, primary assembly line and related functions are based in Mirabel, Québec. https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmf...f24edd97ee.jpg |
According to Wirtschaftswoche, the German FT equivalent, the purchase also includes $925MM government launch aid, $225MM 2018 launch cost recovery and a further $700MM prospective aid for future sales.
Airbus clearly drove a very hard bargain. I'm stunned that neither Boeing nor the Chinese were willing to at least keep Airbus honest. |
Excellent news. I hope the partnership is very successful. The CSeries is a fantastic aircraft and I've really enjoyed all my flights on them. Fingers crossed that they become more and more common.
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Wouldn't that program have been a great airplane for Boeing's lower size?
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I'm stunned that neither Boeing nor the Chinese were willing to at least keep Airbus honest. Boeing looked at the deal as well. Dont know why they did not offer. AB beat them on a great deal. Now it will be made in the US in Alabama. Boeing trying to do the same with Embraer, but without much success. |
I wonder how long before the C Series changes its name to the A317......
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Name is said to be changed to "A200"
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"C Series" always was a daft name.
I wonder why they haven't renamed the CS100 as the A100, and the CS300 as the A300. Oh, hang on ... |
Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
(Post 10187525)
"C Series" always was a daft name.
I wonder why they haven't renamed the CS100 as the A100, and the CS300 as the A300. Oh, hang on ... |
AB finally has a good looking plane.
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SAA had a few A300s on internal services. Passenger comfort was dire and cramped so those of us who had to get to Durban from JNB chose to schedule those meetings for wednesdays when the A300 was in for a weekly service and SAA put one of their 747-SPs on the Durban run. The SP had more legroom in cattle class than the A300 had in business class.
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[QUOTE][Wouldn't that program have been a great airplane for Boeing's lower size?/QUOTE]
Yes, but Boeing was too arrogant. When P&W originally offered the Geared Turbo Fan (GTF) to the industry as a potential game changer, Boeing ignored the opportunity as being unworthy of their consideration - after all, the bottom end of the market was not of serious interest to them, so the 60 year old 737 modernised as the 737MAX7 could handle any orders that might fall into their hands. Also with only 50 units sold after four years of sales effort of the A319NEO, AB accepted that it would not sell and 'bought' the 'nice little C Series' as a complement to the A320-A321 offerings. Bombardier had the only product with 5 wide Y class seating, versus 4 wide on the E-Jets and 6 wide on the 737 and A319. Airbus is now in a market niche of its own with a new clean sheet product in the 100-150+ seat space, seating 5 wide and offering, superior passenger comfort, superior seat mile costs and reduced fuel burns. It nicely complements the 170-180 seat A320NEO and the 210 - 230 seat A321NEO. Boeing was in the same position with the B737-MAX7, but could not bring themselves to recognise what the market was telling them. A huge strategic miss on the part of Boeing, which will take them 6-8 years to catch up, with or without Embraer. |
I already posted about this in the tech section but I'm really curious to see what changes they will bring to get more commonality. |
Originally Posted by atakacs
(Post 10187949)
I already posted about this in the tech section but I'm really curious to see what changes they will bring to get more commonality.
If Airbus injects any technology into the C Series, it will be around production/manufacturing techniques rather than anything for the operators to get excited about. |
Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
(Post 10187977)
Commonality is a complete red herring.
If Airbus injects any technology into the C Series, it will be around production/manufacturing techniques rather than anything for the operators to get excited about. |
Originally Posted by Heathrow Harry
(Post 10188039)
more likely marketing and finance heft.... they can also offer a full range to mix n match....
Airbus could well make improvements to Bombardier's customer support, too, but that isn't either. |
Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
(Post 10187977)
Commonality is a complete red herring.
If Airbus injects any technology into the C Series, it will be around production/manufacturing techniques rather than anything for the operators to get excited about. A logical step for the CSeries as an "A210" and "A230" would be to commonize the flightdeck with an upgraded A320neo Plus in order to bring it in line with the A350 and to provide common type rating between the families. It is worth to mention that other manufacturers are working on the "red herring" too with the new 75 seat "MC-21-75" (also called SuperJet 75) where they are working on bringing it in line with the MC-21-200 and -300. I.e. similar operating procedures, flightdeck and so on. Commonality is an excellent solution and there are no good reasons *not* to do it (especially not if it ends up with one manufacturer, different flight control systems such as mechanical on some models, FBW on others, different layouts on the flightdeck, different engine manufacturers and different maintenance procedures and so on and so forth). Airbus did have the AE316 and 317 in development to address the CSeries market but shelved the project. The idea was good otherwise - commonality with the A320 family but with a 3+2 cabin. There are major benefits to gain from commonality and other manufacturers are following a similar path (look at the Tu-204 and Tu-334 with commonized flightdecks or the CRAIC CR929 that will be commonized with the C919 in that department and so on). Airbus CCQ (Cross Crew Qualification) is an excellent concept, as is their thinking of all their aircraft as belonging to a common family with similar procedures and handling etc. |
The examples you quote above have the advantage that commonality is, or has been, an objective when one, if not both, types are/were at the design stage.
That's nothing new, of course, it's almost 40 years ago that we were first getting excited about the 757 and 767 having a common type rating. But here we're talking about two independently developed products from different manufacturers, both already certificated and in service. Trying to reverse-engineer any meaningful commonality between the current Airbus narrow-body family and the C Series would be both hugely expensive and ultimately have very little point to it. Not what most would describe as a "logical step". |
Originally Posted by AVR4000
(Post 10188290)
A logical step for the CSeries as an "A210" and "A230" would be to commonize the flightdeck with an upgraded A320neo Plus in order to bring it in line with the A350 and to provide common type rating between the families.
Commonality is an excellent solution and there are no good reasons *not* to do it (especially not if it ends up with one manufacturer, different flight control systems such as mechanical on some models, FBW on others, different layouts on the flightdeck, different engine manufacturers and different maintenance procedures and so on and so forth). I give less than 5% chance of CSeries being developed into an Airbus family-compatible aircraft any time soon. |
Originally Posted by etudiant
(Post 10186945)
According to Wirtschaftswoche, the German FT equivalent, the purchase also includes $925MM government launch aid, $225MM 2018 launch cost recovery and a further $700MM prospective aid for future sales.
Airbus clearly drove a very hard bargain. I'm stunned that neither Boeing nor the Chinese were willing to at least keep Airbus honest. Various reports of what the fbw tech is like suggests that it's very good indeed, so we could see future Airbus products adopting it. I suspect Boeing saw it as something to buy and kill, rather than an opportunity. China would have liked to own the tech and design but were likely not making the right noises. Reportedly the Bombardier family shareholding still has some sway over the company, and the combination of Boeing's attempted trade war against Bombardier and a then-secret overture of the right sort ("we like tha plane and we want to help you make thousands of them") from Airbus is probably what made the deal stick. |
Although I can agree with most of what's being said, I just wonder what and / or from where AB will produce a Silver Bullet to increase the already reasonably good sales of the C Series without an expensive redesign of FBW systems and crew interface, because without those any attempt to sell 'commonality' with other AB products is most likely a non-starter.
So good as the C Series might be, it's still going to have to be sold as a stand alone model in the AB catalogue to existing AB operators. Maybe AB have seen an opportunity to improve production rates as the deal clincher as far as they're concerned. |
I strongly suspect that the C-Series / A317(?) is to Airbus what the MD-80 / B717 was to Boeing...
It will be kept going for a few years for primarily political reasons, allowed to wither on the vine, then will be quietly consigned to the aeronautical dustbin of history. Bit like the Dassault Mercure too. Pity as it's a nice aircraft, but there you go. |
Unlikely. The MD80 was already years old at that point. This is a new beast and supposedly good so it's not going to be binned off any time soon.
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Originally Posted by Ben_S
(Post 10188562)
Unlikely. The MD80 was already years old at that point. This is a new beast and supposedly good so it's not going to be binned off any time soon.
The biggest advantage to the C-series that Airbus brings is their world-wide customer support network and some economies of scale (i.e. AB has more leverage to force lower prices out of the suppliers). Flight deck commonality and common type rating is not going to happen - it would be cost prohibitive (think $billions) to make the C-Series flight deck like an A320 - it's just not something you can "retrofit" into an existing design - even the FBW control laws would need to be redone. Airbus is basically in a no-lose situation - they don't have any real skin in the game. If the naysayers are wrong and the C-Series is a commercial success, they stand to make lots of money. If the C-Series continues to lose money hand over fist in excess of what the Bombardier and the Canadian Government have already agreed to cover, they can just shut it down with no real loss since the real AB investment is minimal. |
Originally Posted by er340790
(Post 10188537)
I strongly suspect that the C-Series / A317(?) is to Airbus what the MD-80 / B717 was to Boeing...
It will be kept going for a few years for primarily political reasons, allowed to wither on the vine, then will be quietly consigned to the aeronautical dustbin of history. Bit like the Dassault Mercure too. Whilst Dassault was successful in military aircraft and mainly in business jets - both areas where the economics may not be the most important criteria for selection -, it never made success in the commercial aircraft since the 60s. Do you even remember the name of the Dassault Hirondelle? |
It will be kept going for a few years for primarily political reasons, allowed to wither on the vine, then will be quietly consigned to the aeronautical dustbin of history. |
Do you even remember the name of the Dassault Hirondelle? Sorry for the thread drift, since your original comment questioned the reference to the Mercure. I don't think that was an appropriate comparison, either. I've not flown a C series, but it looks interesting if for no other reason than it's received so much attention here. https://www.pprune.org/images/status...er_offline.gif https://www.pprune.org/images/buttons/report.gif |
Originally Posted by Torquelink
(Post 10189153)
Having worked closely on the evaluation of the CS300 and flown in it many times, I think it will be a great success - not on the scale of the A320 or 737 families perhaps but certainly in comparison to E Jets and even the CRJ series. Airbus concluded that the economics of the aircraft are genuinely superior to the A319neo and that the seat/sector cost was even within a few percentage points of the A320neo. And wait until you fly in it - seat width, window size and noise levels make you realise just how 20th century the A320 and, particularly, the 737 are. To get into such a programme for free and knowing that they can take up to 50% cost out of supplied equipment while adding sales to jack up the production rate - thus further reducing cost - was a no-brainer. Flight deck commonality would have been great but, in the overall scheme of things, not that important.
Boeing have let Airbus have another very easy ride, just like they let the A320 have a very easy ride over the past 25, 30 years. Somehow in this sector at least Airbus seems to not have to spend hardly anything and yet ends up with the best planes, whereas Boeing seem hell bent on not spending anything at all and are inevitably ending up with the worst planes. I am mystified as to why the Boeing company has been allowed to be a miserable failure in its corporate strategy. Is it a symptom of short term share price concerns trumping all other considerations? Probably. Pride? Certainly Airbus seems to have had zero corporate cultural problems in admitting that another company has made a superior product, and Boeing seemingly didn't make the same admission and accept the implications when Bombardier offered them a share some while ago. Lack of cash? I mean, had Boeing back in 1995 set out to make an aircraft better than the A320, there would not now be any A320s flying today or being built and sold for a profit. If they carry on like that for a few more decades, the USA is going to wake up one day and find Boeing is no longer there... |
I am mystified as to why the Boeing company has been allowed to be a miserable failure in its corporate strategy However, having finally got he 787 rocking, they are determined to strangle the A330neo at birth and may actually manage it judging by the aggressive terms they are putting out at present. Of course RR's troubles are playing into their hands too. While the A350-900 is a clear success, the 787-8 (newly re-invigorated to match the -9) through to the -10 is likely to dominate the mid-size widebody market for years to come. The 777X is a different story though - as is the A350-1000. |
C series renamed to A200?
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Airbus has formally redesignated the Bombardier CSeries as the A220, complementing its larger A320 single-aisle range.
Its smaller sister aircraft, previously known as the CS100, will be called the A220-100. flightglobal.com/news/articles/picture-cseries-renamed-as-airbus-a220-450072/ |
It wasn't just the 787 issues that stopped Mr B replacing the 737.. they also had issues with the 747 programme and their tanker for the USAF and they were looking again at the 767/757 replacement
the 737 was selling well.. it would have been a brave man to turn off that cash flow by announcing a new design..... |
Originally Posted by Heathrow Harry
(Post 10193595)
the 737 was selling well.. it would have been a brave man to turn off that cash flow by announcing a new design.....
What going to be really interesting to watch is what happens with the Boeing NMA - rumor mill says it'll be launched by the end of the year. IF it's a really good aircraft it could take over the upper end from the A320 series, while perhaps providing a baseline for an eventual 737 replacement. |
Originally Posted by VacantStand
(Post 10193327)
Airbus has formally redesignated the Bombardier CSeries as the A220, complementing its larger A320 single-aisle range.
Its smaller sister aircraft, previously known as the CS100, will be called the A220-100. flightglobal.com/news/articles/picture-cseries-renamed-as-airbus-a220-450072/ So is the CS300 the A220-300 or the A220-200? Do tell. |
CS300 is the A220-300 https://www.airbus.com/aircraft/pass...20-family.html
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JetBlue taking 60 A220-300s + 60 options to replace its Embraer 190 fleet.
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This weeks Flight has a big article on the NMA. They reckon if is launched now it might be in service by 2026. Problem is that by that time the 757 767 numbers left will be small and many will have been replaced already by Airbus & Boeing products.
It really has to something v new and transformative and that depends on a v new engine ..... and that is a serious unknown |
Originally Posted by VacantStand
(Post 10193955)
JetBlue taking 60 A220-300s + 60 options to replace its Embraer 190 fleet.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-billion-order Couple of weeks before Farnborough, maybe surprising they didn't wait, but also may surprise us all if they get the Farnborough demo aircraft into the paintshop and into Jet Blue livery. Also a big downer for its direct competitor from Embraer, where they are not only replacing their current E190s but Jet Blue were seen as one of the forthcoming New Generation Embraer's potential largest purchasers, given they are one of the largest users of the current type. |
the 737 was selling well.. it would have been a brave man to turn off that cash flow by announcing a new design..... |
I wonder if the Boeing board recognises that the HQ move to Chicago was a big mistake - the ivory tower is too far from the heart of the company and they're out of touch from the operations.
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