BA F/O faces Jail for reporting to work drunk
 

Before I moved into IT I was a biochemist and looked at the rate of alcohol metabolism. The following is from a paper published in 2012.

"Although rates vary widely, the “average” metabolic capacity to remove alcohol is about 170 to 240 g per day for a person with a body weight of 70 kg. This would be equivalent to an average metabolic rate of about 7 g/hr which translates to about one drink per hr.."

It must be said that the same paper goes on to say that there is a 3~4 fold variability in the rate of ethanol elimination but, even then, the sums, in my opinion, don't add up for one drink.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3484320/

Never had any time for puritans, have a light meal with one beer which is much more enjoyable and still be bullet proof.

what about a small meal and a LIGHT beer....

His solicitor made the argument that he wouldn't have taken control of the aircraft until three and a half hours into the flight, which was rejected. He could have had to take control earlier in the event of crew incapacitation and duties such a flight planning and carrying out a preflight check on the aircraft require a pilot to be sober.

Career down the drain at 50 and passengers will be looking at the rest of us, wondering if we've been drinking as well. Nice one.

I flew more than once with Julian Monaghan as my co-pilot around 10 years ago. He was a thoroughly decent regular guy and a very competent pilot. He did not drink excessively during our layovers, or rather I didn't observe or suspect him of drinking heavily.

He is certainly far from stupid and he is paying and will continue to pay a heavy price for what has happened. I would hazard a guess that he might have developed an alcohol problem for whatever reasons in his life.

I do not excuse his behaviour but I suspect it was not a reckless disregard for the rules or common sense but something far deeper.

I hope he gets the help he needs and it saddens me to see someone lose their career in this way.

Quote 'Mighty Mouse'

"I would hazard a guess that he might have developed an alcohol problem for whatever reasons in his life.

I do not excuse his behaviour but I suspect it was not a reckless disregard for the rules or common sense but something far deeper."

No sh*t Sherlock! I think you may be right. As a pilot you should know that pilots have a certain responsibility to act sensibly. This man did not. He suffers accordingly, and yes, I hope he is given appropriate help. I trust that your 'sympathies' for him would also extend to those car passengers he might have killed or injured driving to work while drunk, or those passengers and crew he likewise might have endangered as a crew member.

Whatever his problem, 'passed over' BA RHS queen, marital. financial or whatever, the public and his fellow crew have the right to expect that he would act sensibly. He did not. It was unforgiveable. I hope you are equally 'saddened' by his failure to exercise his responsibilites too? Your 'suspicion' that it was not a "reckless disregard for the rules or common sense" gives me and others in the aviation community great concern, in particular for your judgement as a BA Captain.

I couldn't agree more about fatigue.

I was driving us home late one night after an airshow we'd been working at (and had absolutely no alcohol whatsoever plus ate sensibly), the long hours suddenly kicked in. And I couldn't stay awake / felt myself nodding off at the wheel. I pulled off at the next exit and turned off the engine. Mate next to me apparantly then woke up and asked where we were but I didn't answer ... because I was already asleep!!

When you're flying an aircraft you simply don't have the 'luxury' of being able to pull over at the next exit and take some time out.

These are scary times when airlines push the limits on crew hours. And equally when struggling with fatigue, why some people still report for duty when they are over the alcohol limit.

CS

I expect many of us know pilots who have crashed - sometimes fatally - driving home due to sleep deprivation. There have been 2 studies that relate fatigue directly as a measure against alcohol level and current regs allow crews to operate perfectly legally with fatigue levels equivalent to alcohol levels that are illegal. It's in the "too difficult/expensive" box and neither authorities nor companies will deal with it.

It is also worth pointing out that this was not a morning flight, where a lively session the night before might have lead to a positive reading the following day.

To be reading 86mg at 8pm is very impressive if it is off a previous evening, and there is certainly no excuse for drinking anything during the day leading up to an evening departure. I suspect that there is more to this than meets the eye.

All that being said, I hope that the poor chap gets the help he obviously needs and is able to resume his career. I don't personally think anything would be served by sending him to prison (and I am no liberal when it comes to law and justice).

Timmy
Its a bit like the C word (commuting) many CAA/Companies or Crew deal with it either

Why should people feel the need to drink (alcohol) with a meal?

Is this something along the line of "cigarette after a meal enhances the taste".

I have never posted on rumours and news before being only an interested slf.However, I really cannot see what good a prison sentence would serve in this case.
This man has already lost his job and who knows what else.
I noted the magistrate stated as a pilot his actions were worse than driving a car in this condition, I would disagree.Surely in the cockpit his fellow crew members would have prevented him from killing everyone.

People make their choices, and they must live with the consequences.

I have little sympathy for people who put themselves in these situations, in any industry or job.

The Times report on this indicates that Pilot's Solicitor reported his client had a Vodka and Coke at 10:30 in the morning.

Generally, few people drink hard liquor at breakfast, which seems to indicate an underlying drink problem that needs proper treatment.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...-fly-7nsrsn6cx

I consider Alcohol related problems to be a health issue and have a significant sympathy for anyone with a problem.

That sympathy stops when they let it risk the safety of other people.

I agree entirely that fatigue is a much more significant problem but that does not excuse other kinds of breaches.

The suggestion that "his fellow crew-members would have stopped him from killing anyone" is absolute bunkum as an argument in this case - he's onboard to support them as part of the crew not to be a burden to them. What happens if it's him that's needed to step up and stop them killing everyone if they make a mistake, become fatigued or become incapacitated?

As for prison - I don't think that in his direct case it will be necessary but as part of the wider issue I think there is a strong justification for a prison sentence to underline to everyone else in this industry that this is not acceptable.

Once again - This Gentleman has my genuine sympathy if he is suffering from Alcoholism. I personally hope they give him a suspended prison sentence, but a custodial one would be entirely warranted.

Regarding his having a vodka in the morning, it is reported that he came off an overnight positioning flight. That being the case, the vodka was probably a "wind-down" drink (although 8 hours before duty sounds a bit odd. 11 hours would be more in line with crew rest). I also suspect there is a lot more here than meets the eye. 8 hours from a single vodka might leave some residual alcohol, but not enough to be over even the driving limit. So, either porky-pies or there is some underlying medical problem we don't know about. I guess we'll never know the full story.

The Times reports he spent the day prior to reporting (after the commuting flight) without food or sleep. If true, was he not falling to ensure adequate fitness for duty, in multiple respects, not just alcohol? "Colleagues became concerned about his appearance" - I'm not surprised; Anyone would look a wreck after that, before even starting work.

Not saying you aren't right in this case, but I fly mostly at night, get into the hotel at 7am, have an alcoholic drink with my "breakfast" (or as I call it "dinner"). I then go to bed. sleep for 8 hours (if I don't get woken up by housekeeping....). Get up 5pm, go work-out, go for "dinner" around 8pm (or as I like to call it "brunch"), and normally have a pick-up around 10pm. Definitely not everyone's schedule, but also very legal. This guy reported for long-haul so there is way more reverse side of the clock then for the 9-5 crowd.

Quite - few realise that someone's breakfast time might be someone else's supper time.

A few years ago I dated a nurse who worked the typical NHS 12.5 hour shifts, starting at 7am or 7pm ish. If she was on nights then her 'supper' at 9am would often involve a 'meat and two veg' meal, plus a glass of wine. If possible eaten outside in the morning sunshine. After some strange looks from the neighbours they took to putting the wine in coffee cups .....

But, equally, when she came over for the weekend after a straight 7 night shifts in a row (only just legal but it was), she was absolutely wrecked and fit for nothing. Think about it, you pilots who are taking your kids to A&E when they've had an accident .. 12.5 hours x 7 = 87.5 hours worked in one week. That's one week, not one month!! And these are people charged with looking after the lives of others.

It was a very boring weekend by the way...

CS

Sorry, medicine and aviation are different. That is not to say you dont need to concentrate in the NHS but it is totally different work, mostly done in one time zone, on static or regularly rotating rostas indoors on the ground. Fatigue does play a role in safety in both industries, but whereas pilots are restricted well below the european working time directive, doctors are actually exempt. Doctors work single handed - no multi crewing which is a very good idea as we have no CRM training! I worked 112 hour weeks for many years in medicine and it was far far easier than flying within EASA limits.

That's a fair point Radgirl about time zones and being different types of work etc and I'm not trying to pick a fight (just genuinely curious) but .. how do you know that it was 'far, far easier than flying within EASA limits'? How can fatigue be measured or assessed or compared across different industries?? Genuine question... and I don't know the answer

Doctors don't always work alone though .. they have nurses to help them, carry out their instructions etc. And just occasionally to call them on bad decisions because they themselves are too tired to make the right one. As happened with this lady I was seeing who once refused to carry out a doctor's instructions to do xyz. He went off on one and reported her to his consultants group who looked into it. and told him "You owe this nurse a serious apology because what you told her to do would probably have killed that patient". She never did get one..

(My respects to you for working those hours by the way!)

Thanks Cargosales. No offense taken - it is a fascinating subject covering many industries. My personal experience is that fatique was more of an issue and effected my performance and safety to a greater extent in aviation as opposed to medicine. and although there are others around, Many of us in medicine are working such that there are no cross checks and nobody else has the expertise to pick up errors nor to react to them. You correctly point out this is not universal.

Today almost everything is all over the web in seconds - compared to Pprune 10 years ago I start to think we need new forums for

Planes running off runway/taxiways
Aircrew arrested for possible intoxication
Passengers attacked by airline/security staff
Drunk passengers

It's not that things are getting worse - I suspect the rates of all of the above were much the same 10, 20, 30 years ago - it's just we know about EVERYTHING these days - whether we like it or not...............

I think it was far worse in the past.
 

But my last company saw it as a health problem and paid for the pilot to attend an institute like the priory then give them a useful job on the ground for a year or so on full pay. They were reintroduced back on the line. Always with company medical back up over an extended period.
Maybe BA has changed and had already done this.. if not they should look at their welfare policies.

They work as part of a multidisciplinary team and even clinical judgement can be questioned. Even in my part of the world if a doctor had alcohol on their breath and was suspected of being impaired (s)he'd be pulled.

As for aviation, many single pilot ops.

This guy needs support, rehabilitation and insight so that he may again be productive, however most Airlines will make a big show of pushing offender out of the door pronto and trying to turn it into a "we put passenger safety first" advert and "said person is no longer employed by us".

Thanks flash8

'Multidisciplinary team' is just a PC term whereby individuals' decisions are questioned after the event. nothing has really changed. Unlike multicrew aviation post Windsor where decisions are cross checked at the time. An anaesthetist works on his own most of the time. Nobody can question or is even aware of his judgement until it is immaterial

We do have quite a good system for picking up those addicted to drugs and alcohol with a protocol accepted by the government in some countries such that the individual is stopped from working, given help and then allowed to continue working, albeit sometimes in another specialty. These systems were designed by and operated by doctors, not employers or authorities. No police or court involvement. I have seen more than a few colleagues / trainees continue to work successfully afterwards.

However there is no proscribed alcohol level for being a doctor or nurse. I have never seen anyone breathalyzed. I have never seen anyone picked up for being drunk as opposed to being an ongoing alcoholic. Is it that fellow doctors are more ready to pull the individual up, is it that the presence of a rescue system and no prosecution means the individual is more ready to admit their problem and accept help, or is medicine less safe? I certainly dont know but food for thought

Radgirl,

Interesting comparison between medicine and aviation. Seen this book ? It's pretty good and makes the point that medicine could learn some things from aviation:

I would add that in my wife's NHS trust there are also no planned rest/nutrition breaks during these 12.5hr plus shifts cargosales describes, and with an expectation that staff will be present typically half an hour prior and as required after handover with little roster stability including lates to earlies, often with less than minimum rest. Three of her colleagues are currently participating in tribunals and malpractice enquiries. She also enjoys a wind-down glass of wine at 9am following a nightshift (which I think was the point being made - not all who drink in the morning fall into the 'problem drinker' category). But back to the case of the BA F/O, I don't believe BA is a company that would be seen to be however in this case, wasn't there an element of bringing the company into disrepute as a consequence of reporting by the media following the event?

Trial by media then.

If your working 112 hours week in week out your most likely to suffer from fatigue. If your working to EASA (how many times do Pilots work to the limits e.g. of FDP / duty hours etc) your most likely to suffer from sleepiness. There is a big difference imho.

Interesting - I had the 'good luck' to require minor surgery here in the US. They wheeled me partially sedated into the operating theater where the surgeon went through the who are you, is this where we are operating etc. then they started the anesthetic - as they did, the surgeon went into PF briefing crew mode and his demeanor went from bedside manner to punchy CRM, We will be doing this - your task is ...., your task is.... then I was recovering ;-)
I was quite impressed and told him so at a post op check a week later. I said it sounded like a crew brief. Turns out they had been cross training on the flight crew approach to CRM for use in the operating theater. Happens when you use university medical centers.

Ian W sadly dont believe a word a surgeon tells you

Some years ago a doctor from Africa showed the large number of errors being made in operating theatres - wrong operation, wrong patient, wrong site. He worked tirelessly to get most nations to introduce what is called the WHO check list. We all use it. Fantastic

The only difference is that outside the US we tend to think of surgeons as just doctors not god so it is usually the anaesthetist, who is able to talk to god, who leads the checklist and tells everyone what to do

Seriously, this simple check list has made a massive difference in terms of reducing risk. I totally agree that, although there are major differences between aviation and medicine, the latter can learn a a lot from the former. One of the most important is confidential reporting such as CHIRP - in medicine you can only report an error by going public, and often get crucified.

Radgirl, I'm afraid I'm not familiar with the WHO checklist but having done a quick Google it makes a lot of sense..

Kind of like when the surgeon came round to have a chat to my (then) partner about the op she was about to undergo. And explained that they wanted to make damned sure they had got it absolutely right (and didn't remove the wrong kidney or bit or whatever) so there was a cross check in the operating theatre so they looked for the 'big blue cross'. And he then got out a marker pen and drew a large blue cross. On one of her boobs! And he agreed with her that that was indeed the problem area (and the correct boob) which needed to be operated on.

Momentarily embarrassing, yes. Lifetime of anguish and unecessary lawsuits - avoided!!

Radgirl, I'm afraid I'm not familiar with the WHO checklist but having done a quick Google it makes a lot of sense..

Kind of like when the surgeon came round to have a chat to my (then) partner about the op she was about to undergo. And explained that they wanted to make damned sure they had got it absolutely right (and didn't remove the wrong kidney or bit or whatever) so there was a cross check in the operating theatre so they looked for the 'big blue cross'. And he then got out a marker pen and drew a large blue cross. On one of her boobs! And he agreed with her that that was indeed the problem area (and the correct boob) which needed to be operated on.

Momentarily embarrassing, yes. Lifetime of anguish and unecessary lawsuits - avoided!!