My word funfly, you are a sensitive little snowflake. you said:
Well PPRuNe is a professional pilots forum, have you any idea how professional lawyers refer to their 'punters' or Doctors their patients? - PPRuNe is public only inasmuch as you are able to gain access to it, but it is not a public forum as such, designed for the general public, nor is it compulsory.

You need to get over yourself. "The unwashed masses" is just a casual term referring to any crowd of punters that act in a herd mentality and is hardly limited to aviation.

If it offends you, just don't fly any more. Join the immaculately behaved and groomed passengers on the buses and trains. They'd be happy to have you.

Israelis are most likely IDF trained, including in how to recognize and react assertively to emergencies.

Not having been there, none of us can comment knowledgeably on the habitability of the cabin. But if the cabin air is toxic and getting worse, it's time to leave.

It would be preferable if you would be kind enough to wait until the Captain and First Officer have had time to assess the situation and then work through the Evacuation Check list if they deem it necessary and reach

item No 8: Advise the Cabin to evacuate.

Item no 8 follows

item no 7: Engine start levers (both)...............................Cut off.

If you chose to leave prior to number 7 having been carried out you might end up getting sucked into a live engine or trying to jump down a slide that is being blown around by the engine exhaust and end up falling and possibly landing on your head!:ugh:

Someone always thinks they know better! However as in this unfortunate incident "if the cabin air is toxic and getting worse", it's not necessarily the time to leave.

RBF..

- How about for once giving some credit to the pilots on the flight deck, all of whom highly trained in recognizing and reacting to emergencies..? ( some might even be ex-mil to boot)

You are right, none of us were there, I guess not even you, however as it stands from the initial media report:

Again back to the comment that:

That doesn't give them a get out of jail card...there patently wasn't an emergency was there? At least there wasn't one at a level that required an immediate evacuation - one that ended up with a woman VSI as a result of the chaos triggered by the passengers, not by the smoke from the tug..

I don't care whether the evacuees were IDF, SAS, the Welsh Male Voice choir or a bunch of Boy Scouts, ignoring the information given by trained individuals who could actually see the source of the problem, and instead evacuating towards a hazardous area is a really really P Poor decision....

The problem many are overlooking
 

The problem many on this thread are overlooking, is this:

From back in the cheap seats, waiting for the captain's EV announcement means having faith that:

• The folks up front in the cockpit are not incapacitated and are still in their seats,
• The folks up front can clearly see what's going on, not only outside the aircraft but in the cabin as well.
• The PA system is still working correctly.

That's a fair measure of faith to ask for. DIY evac might be the wrong choice in some cases, even calamitously wrong, but it is not an entirely insane one.

Experience shapes judgment
 

To the extent that, up to this point, everything that every employee had said to the passengers, from reservation through ticket purchase, check-in, security, boarding, had turned out to have been 100% true, the passengers should have believed the pilots.

Pilots who want their passengers to believe them in emergency situations should encourage their airline to develop a reputation for scrupulous honesty in all interactions with passengers at all levels of the organization.

You are referring to the particulars of this case. I was pointing out why it is that perfectly sane, reasonable passengers might, in many cases, attempt a DIY evac, even though it might be a very bad idea.

A few points.


The captain is very well trained in that he is communicating with the fire services that arrived on site "with in minutes" getting a better account of the situation while going thru a check list - what does the second pilot do while the communication with the fire services is happening?


The captain the person in charge is said to have made an announcement about smoke coming from outside and there was no danger!


Now I do believe once there is smoke in the cockpit there are procedures for flight crew to follow. Don the mask!! at this point the flight crew are in a different environment to the SLF and cabin crew. So the level of toxic smoke in the cabin will not be known as safe or not by the flight crew - a professional would follow procedure wouldn't they.


If the announcement was made by the captain, then clearly it was not presented well enough, and the captain lost control of his ship as a door was opened before his command.


As a result a person has sustained serious injury and the person in charge is responsible and accountable.


In hindsight the captain may have made a different announcement that contained more detail, in a different tone or requested a translated announcement by cabin crew or others - I don't know what options he had open to him, but what he did didn't work. Thinking of cargo as unwashed and other ways may have been how the SLF judged the captain, possible if he gave a little bit more concern for how others were feeling none of this would have happened.


Now the question is after this lady illegally vacated the aircraft, what seat in the court will the captain be sitting?

1 I fail to see what difference it makes whether you are in the 'cheap' seats or not

2 Can you cite any case where any of your above examples occurred on an intact aircraft and a crew initiated evacuation didn't take place?

Ok maybe not policy for all.


https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/607179-flight-fire.html


But it is the captains responsibility to have reliable crew and to handle the situations that happen on "his" aircraft during his command.

Now as a previous poster stated the captain is in charge - that is not just a statement but requires actions. The captain of this flight clearly lost control and with not much doubt, with no knowledge to himself or the co-pilot.


Why?

How do you know that? To make a statement like that you must either have been on the flight deck during this incident or be part of the investigation team and had access to the CVR.

I suspect neither case applies and you are writing an absolute load of rubbish. Pprune, full of non professional pilot crash and serious incident investigators.:ugh:

Why not leave the investigation to the Hungarian authorities, in due course they will publish a report which will be interesting and perhaps something that I can learn from.

So you have passengers who off their own bat, have decided to evacuate...Short of appearing at the Flight Deck door armed with a 9mm what actions do you, in your expert option, think would have restored control?

FWIW the general feeling where I work is if one of these passenger induced foul ups starts (e.g. tailpipe flames/torching at night..odd smells) and doors get opened the safest course of action is carry out the evac checklist, that way hopefully people aren’t going to kill themselves evacuating from a rolling aircraft or evacuating into/behind a turning engine.....even somebody with the leadership skills of Rommel or Patton isn’t going to stop the stampede.

It's never EVER appropriate for the SLF to decide to commence an emergency evac, unless the aircraft has crashed - I don't undertand how there can be debate on this...

So the captain, FO and, say, six cabin crew are faced with 150 hysterical passengers and he is deemed to have lost control if they don't all sit down and listen to him? Don't think so.


Crew wearing oxygen masks in the cabin is usually part of depressurisation procedures, If there is the possibility of fire in the cabin you really don't want oxygen washing around your face.

I base it on a body on the tarmac and a PPRune thread.


Sorry just a LAME.


Option is stop a tug as a captain that trows such smoke to cause a incident as this - a clear concern for other safety such as brakes in my opinion that this tug is not safe.

Ever seen a diesel engine run away?

There's been lots of discussion about the fact the captain announced there was no danger and the smoke was external. Do we know what the conditions were like inside the passenger cabin? I believe some (lots?) of smoke had entered the cabin, but not the cockpit(?), via the engines and aircon.


I can easily believe that a passenger seeing a fair amount of smoke, possibly increasing, in the cabin might think the safest thing to do is to evacuate regardless of any announcements that they may or may not have heard. I'm sure that the selective audio and visual span that some pilots have suffered from in past incidents is not unique to pilots.

After reading through this thread, it is redundantly clear that there are two sides to every story.

As a passenger, I will always listen to the PA announcements. As a NYer who lived through 9/11 (granted a unique horror), workers in the South Tower were told to remain in place and all was safe.

With social media increasingly a major contributor to a decline in public trust of authority, I feel the pain of the professionals at the pointy end, and cabin crew, dealing with the hysteria of the world we seem to inhabit.

Fly safe all.