3 point turn in a 757
 

So what do you do if you missed your exit? Looks like this one just missed the turn and instead of calling for a tug, just a little bit of reverse and problem solved :ok:

I know powerbacks were common back in the 70's and 80's but were abandoned for a number of reasons. Looks like the crew was under pressure to make the turn (notice the tire smoke just before the turn).

https://youtu.be/lqZ83gJc7DE

Pretty silly thing to do due risk of damage to engine due ingestion of hot gas, FOD. On the 757 reverse was cancelled at 80 knots so as to be at no more than reverse idle by taxi speed.(IIRC, it's been 20 years!)

Not been there in a while, but surely there is a turning circle at both ends? And, they started to make a 180 from the centreline and not from the edge of the runway. It seems a 45m runway, so manoeuvring to the edge and then turning should be no problem. It used to be the case that on these type of runways in hot climates, it was mandatory to use the end turning circles.
The runway is short enough; I can't imagine making the 2nd turnoff was critically necessary otherwise the estimated stopping distance becomes crazy short.

As for 'backing up'; it is possible. Nearly had to do it once in Africa, B757, but fortunately we managed to negotiate another solution. Not recommended if you haven't been trained and with a wing walker.

Pragmatism at its finest!

My SOP calls for idle by 80 and closed by 60. I know that Eastern did powerbacks back in the early days of 757's but stopped, in part due to risk of FOD damaged

Think this should be shown to the operator in question, if only for some debrief of the event at the very least.

Multiple people saw and know about the event, the registration is just about visible on the footage, definitely the 737 lining up is, G-TAWD has not been to JSI in last 7 days, so establishing when footage was taken will identify crew by airline.

LOL, I feel tea, without any biccies, in the office for someone.

It was probably the Chief Pilot. So he will have tea AND biccies with himself!

The manœuvre practised at Prestwick on my B747 Conversion. No problems only low power needed, we had crew member with head out of the cockpit roof hatch if directions needed. Only for use in extremis!

A quick look at FR24 would indicate that, unless the video is more than 6 months ago, it was filmed on 16th June, that being the only occasion this year where the 737 in question departed JSI immediately after a TOM 757 (BY7534 from BHX, in this instance) had landed.

I don't think he missed the exit but perhaps he tried to make the most northern taxyway (which incidentally gives a landing roll of around 800m) but this involves a turn of around 140 degrees to the left and that coupled with the narrower runway at 30m, obviously gave less pavement to turn on.

As there is no nose in parking at JSI, perhaps there is no tug and 757 towbar available anyway?

sure is one way to lessen the life of an engine !! This action also increases the risk of FOD ingestion. Why do you think they have tugs for pushbacks ? I remember a DHL 727 at Heathrow doing it off stand years ago and as it was so dangerous it was stopped. They did it as they couldnt be bothered to get a towbar from another part of the airfield. The only aircraft that regularly do it are hercs as they dont tend to carry towbars

DaveReid: I would agree with that date. The video seems to show G-OOBN on the fuselage of the arriving B757 and that was indeed the aircraft flying BY7534 that day (arriving around 10:20 ish). Regardless of all the shock horror stuff, the pilot didn't reverse down the runway; he backed the aircraft up across the width of the runway, just to get the extra 10 or 20 metres needed to make that taxiway turn. Exactly as the thread title suggests; a 3 point turn.

Folks,
Experience over the years tell me that it is OK if you are very careful.

I have been part of the crew several times, as somebody said, pragmatism.

It can have interesting consequences, old BOAC mate of mine did it at EGLL during an industrial dispute with tug drivers, a B707, ----- aircraft was blacked for quite a while.

We did it one night on the cargo ramp at (now) KJFK, again B707-320C. As S/O/SSCCSA (Secretary to the Steering Committee and Captain's Sexual Advisor), I was the one hanging out the back doors calling the directions, we were empty, fortunately.

We backed up a B747SP one night at YBBN, again an industrial dispute and the tug drivers refused to push, the aeroplane was blacked, didn't come back into Australia for something like a month.

Be extra careful if you are going to do it with a JT9 of any kind.

All good stuff, as long as you get it right.

I experienced it several times in the USA, albeit in B727s whose engines are higher mounted of course.

Reversing
 

It was very common in the US many years ago and I remember regularly helping the Air Ecosse Bandeirante to reverse off stand at BFS on the BFS/PIK/ABZ schedule. It sometimes needed a helping hand on the nose to help break the inertia, if it was heavily laden.

Risky stuff. If anything goes wrong, you are in deep doo-doo.

Chief pilot flying into cat c airfield!!,now that made me laugh.
I have seen a 757 power back many times in Orlando but we were not allowed to do it under normal circumstances.I would suggest that as Skiathos is such a well photographed airfield ,nothing gets missed.Go to the end and use the turning circle,the clue is in the name.

Why? Did someone not understand the use of Thrust Reversers as laid out in the FCOM?

Done rather neatly, I thought!!

My bad, it says now to start reducing approaching 60 and idle by taxi speed, I don't know where I found that 80kts limit (perhaps a trainer talked about it way back) but I guess a should start reading the SOP revisions....:}

Regarding the video, I noticed how quickly after becoming stationary the reversers open, quick thinking to save a possible embarrasing situation. Luckily for them it turned out ok (but might warrant a quick visit down to the office) I don't find anything in the 757 AFM that prohibs using reverse thrust for this purpose but I understand that at least the 777/787 forbid it??

To me the questions still arise:

Why not use the turning circle at the end? Why cook the brakes to make a short turn off unnecessarily; unless it was closed?
Why not initiate the turn off from the far edge of the runway to give maximum space if you've missed that turn off?

The latest chart I can find (stand to be corrected) shows a 30m wide movement area on the short runway and turning circles at both ends. The 2nd turn off must surely have given some brake cooling issues as well as a crowded cockpit. It's only got 4 seats not 204. :ooh:

The problem with untrained backing up is if you get it moving too fast and panic and hit the brakes..............it's a risky 'try it & see for the first time' manoeuvre.

Lots of why this and why that. That's one of the main problems with these videos. We have no idea of the circumstances at the time, only lots of maybe this or maybe that. Here's another maybe: the company 737 had a slot to meet and ATC asked the 757 to expedite vacating the runway after landing. Note that I don't mean ATC specified he try for that taxiway. That part would have been at the Captain's own initiative.

A burst tyre would have been an embarrassing reason for B757 to miss its own slot: perhaps.

ATC: "xxxxx expedite"
757 PIC: "Unable"

No, peekay4, not like that at all. The fact that the aircraft would normally go to the end to turn around and then backtrack to that taxiway, the ATC instruction to expedite would have been in that context. Having said that, ATC would normally make that request after landing. But without an ATC transcript or indeed a CVR transcript, we can speculate until the cows come home.

Cathay did it last year in Hong Kong on a 777. Captain was fired, not sure where he was from.

Just simply using the full width of a runway will prevent this from happening. Many captains in my life have done a 180 ON the runway, initiating by going towards the runway edge before making a swing through the centreline. Never starting from its centreline!

A B752 is capable of performing a 180 on a 150' wide runway like that at Skiathos, but there isn't a huge margin for error.

Thanks for info, I was aware of this (the minimum width of pavement turns 120'), what I refer to is doing a 180 by first moving away from the CL to give some more space as we are not all test pilots.

Maybe that's a Boeing characteristic ... Ryanair 738s used to make 180° turns at FKB on a regular basis ... with great aplomb!

Just happened I wrote this on Quora recently.


In 40 years I only reversed twice, and that was with turbo-prop aircraft rather then turbo-jet.

As mentioned the danger to the engine is very significant as a cloud of bits is usually thrown to the front of the engines which gulp in a LOT of air. In my case, there was no option as the tug had gone TU. (don’t ask what that means)

We were able to alter the prop blades so they gave us reverse, but now the real dangers start. We were taking responsibility for the safety of the aircraft and ground personnel, where normally we’d hand over to the tug crew. The other big issue is, one must NOT touch the brakes. An aircraft sitting on its tail is usually a career-changing issue. So, a very careful change from reverse to forward thrust is needed before you even put your feet over the pedals.

A long time ago, my pal’s Britannia was parked in Mogadishu, I think it was. The terminal was then just a huge wooden structure. He was ordered to reverse.

“But . . . But . . .”

The order came again, very clear and very loud. The Whispering Giant collapsed the building.

Very simple

If this company, (it's obvious from the video who it is!) allows B757 to reverse using TLs, then the crew are in the clear.

If not, then the crew (captain?) is a cowboy/cowgirl!

As I said. Very simple.

I was a F/E on the B727 at KBOS. Due a mixup, by ATC, IIRC, we wound up face to face with a L1011 outbound, we were inbound and both of us on the Inner or the Outer. Captain asked the FO and me what we thought. Well, a tow us gonna be wait, if it's clear to the rear, go for it. We went about 100 yards back to a transition to the Inner or the Outer. We were doing powerbacks normally then.

Lands,..makes a possible error of judgement in the turnoff..at this point,it matters not that there may or not be a turning circle at the end.
Now,committed to the manoeuvre,the pilot carefully executes a non approved/recommended procedure...and finishes the job.
Oversimplified response helps no one!...except those who think they are immune from error...

I am beginning to suspect that any challenging conditions,bought on by themselves,or by nature, should be cause for flying bans,for some airlines!

As an ex hatter,I doff mine.

What if no book of authority mentions it?

Two distinctly different attitudes to aviation are,

- Everything is allowed, unless specifically prohibited

and,

- Nothing is allowed, unless specifically approved

Have you ever been to JSI, or even looked at the runway plate??

And your point is ... ?

It's 30 metres wide

OK, then I stand corrected - I was using Google Earth, but I have the plate in front of me now.

The pavement width is 150', but the declared runway width is indeed 30m.