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(pax, obviously). Or you could just treat your customers as just that, customers. Failing that just treat them as human beings.
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Well said! It costs nothing to be decent human being.
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Wonder if this event will be subject to ICAO Annex 13 procedures? If so in due course we could all get to see every last detail.
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Looks like United is already taking steps to quickly resolve the matter :ok::
United to refund ticket cost to Flight 3411 passengers Wednesday, April 12th 2017, 3:29 pm EDT By Charles Gazaway, Digital Content Producer LOUISVILLE, KY (WAVE) - The passengers who witnessed a man being forcibly removed from a Louisville-bound United Airlines flight are going to get their money back. In an e-mail to WAVE 3 News, United Airlines media relations said, "All customers on flight 3411 on Sunday, April 9 are being compensated for the cost of their tickets." PREVIOUS STORIES + United: Airline won't use police to remove passengers + Passenger removed from flight ID'd as KY doctor with troubled past Flight 3411 was boarding at Chicago O'Hare Airport when United employees asked for four people to voluntarily give up their seats. Passengers were told the flight was overbooked and four United employees had to be flown to Louisville for their shift on Monday. NBC Chicago has reported that the passenger forcibly removed, Dr. David Dao, 69, of Elizabethtown, KY, agreed, along with his wife, to take the offer of $800 each from United for their seats and take a later flight. The confrontation took place after the Daos learned there was not another flight that would get them to Louisville until Monday. Witnesses said Dao told employees that he was a physician and had to get home to see patients on Monday. Dao remains in a Chicago hospital where he is undergoing treatment for injuries suffered during his removal from the plane. |
Originally Posted by portmanteau
(Post 9738045)
Wonder if this event will be subject to ICAO Annex 13 procedures? If so in due course we could all get to see every last detail.
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This is the part that still makes no sense to me. This situation started with offers of compensation for people to give up their seat voluntarily. The airline can still raise the compensation amount until someone bites Now, as an ex crew scheduler there are a few possible scenarios of when that crew became scheduled to position from A to B: 1. It was a regular weekly crew rotation but a cock-up prevented the seats from being blocked-off, or: 2. There had been an operational problem, perhaps a crew going out-of-hours or a change of aircraft type, and this positioning crew had been called out from standby at their homes some hours before this flight was departing, or: 3. As per 2. except this positioning crew had been on airport standby duty and were called, quite literally, minutes before this flight was departing and with passengers already boarding. I don't favour 1. or 3., my favoured is 2., that the crew had been called out from standby at home, I'd guesstimate at least 2 hours before STD, and somebody forgot, didn't bother, couldn't care, to notify passenger handling that their flight was going to be 4 seats short. And would I be right in presuming that this happened over a weekend when no management may have been on duty to authorise a King Air or whatever? |
Originally Posted by TowerDog
(Post 9737560)
I remember 9/11. Do you? |
Originally Posted by Mr Optimistic
(Post 9738034)
(pax, obviously). Or you could just treat your customers as just that, customers. Failing that just treat them as human beings.
Yes, use common sense, but how nasty the machinery behind can be? You will know better (maybe). |
Did anyone else read on Monday that after Dr. Dao was removed, the second time, the passengers were deplaned back into the terminal so the cleaning crew could take care of the mess? Saw the following reported in a local Louisville newspaper:
Powell said he and other passengers were in shock, but the worst part, for him, came when Dao returned to the plane and was cornered near the bathroom in the back - closer to Powell's students. "I'm thinking to myself, 'Nothing good is coming of this,'" Powell said. "... I removed my kids from the plane, saying we don't need to see this stuff. We got up and left." The group was quickly followed by a father and his eight-year-old daughter, who was crying along with one of Powell's students, he said. Soon after, the airline deboarded the plane to clean up blood from the incident. It was reported that some passengers with small children refused to re-board the flight, and took travel vouchers from United for a later flight. Thus the flight 3411 departed two hours later, with EMPTY SEATS. |
The San Francisco Board of Supervisors are considering a rule that would prohibit the use of SFPD to enforce policy decisions on the part of any airline. IOW, if you choose to deplane a passenger under overbooking circumstances, you get to do it...and you get to absorb the full liability of your decision.
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Originally Posted by Airbubba
(Post 9738050)
Looks like United is already taking steps to quickly resolve the matter :ok::
United to refund ticket cost to Flight 3411 passengers - wave3.com-Louisville News, Weather & Sports How on earth anyone thought that was clever is completely beyond me. Look, if you offer $800 it'll maybe be jumped at by a foreign student who is bumming around the USA for a few months and it doesn't matter which day, or week, they get there, but if there ain't enough of them on the flight no professional is going to lose a night at home and a day at work for that little. |
Originally Posted by pax2908
(Post 9738080)
front line staff will continue to be in impossible situations Customer Needs vs Company Standard Policy
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Originally Posted by West Coast
(Post 9737782)
Yup, love the consternation here, people will continue to choose based on cost and to a lesser degree convenience. I as an airline pilot buy tickets when the family has to be somewhere on a timeline. That often times puts me on the competition's aircraft.
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In the original circumstance where passengers were offered $800 to 'defer' - were they offered overnight accommodation? - or were they expected to cover that from the $800?
Were the displaced passengers given a guaranteed seat the following day? - or were they left to find their own onward travel out of the $800? |
So it has already cost them several times as much as it would have done to bribe someone with a few grand to get off the flight. That's without the various lawsuits and the share price. Somehow I suspect that all airlines from now on will have a nuclear option available that does not publicly go above today's going rate. |
Looks like the attorneys are going after the CVR on the plane. Remember the naïve days when we were told that it could only be used for safety purposes?
Maybe moot in this case since the plane has probably operated several sectors since Sunday. Cockpit cameras are just around the corner... Attorneys for doctor yanked from United flight seeks to preserve evidence Wednesday, April 12th 2017, 4:36 pm EDT By Makayla Ballman, Digital Content Producer CHICAGO, IL (WAVE) - Attorneys for Dr. David Dao, the man who was forcefully pulled off United Airlines flight 3411, have filed an emergency bill of discovery. Dr. Dao is seeking to preserve the surveillance videos, cockpit voice recordings, passenger and crew lists, incident reports, and other materials related to United Airlines flight 3411. Dr. Dao says it's "crucial and essential" that the materials be preserved. If they are not, he says he could face "serious prejudice." Dr. Dao's request also seeks to require the city of Chicago, which operate O'Hare International Airport, to preserve the materials. Dr. Dao, a family member and his attorneys will speak at a press conference on Thursday at 10 a.m (central time) in Chicago. PREVIOUS STORIES + Elizabethtown doctor indicted on 98 drug charges + E'town doctor charged with dealing prescription drugs + Doctor arrested for unlawful prescription writing |
Wasn't it an $800 voucher ?
Has to be more, and only as cash in hand - Voucher is no good. What gets me is, this situation should never occur. You don't board people onto an aircraft, until everything is in order. Every pax has an assigned seat or is denied boarding if the flight is oversold. You forcibly remove pax who are highly disruptive, or a danger to themselves or others. You never deplane a seated commercial passenger - Ever. I don't believe it matters too much what the contracts or terms, or even the captain says. If you have paid for your ticket, checked in, received boarding pass and crossed the threshold of the aircraft door to your seat - it is too late. It is total madness and too far into the performance of the contract to invoke some policy small print, or panicking and calling the police for help. I do hope the police send a clear message to airlines that they will not become involved in such rediculous practices. |
Originally Posted by lomapaseo
(Post 9738106)
Would it be worth it for me to hold out for ten grand to get off a flight the next time if I find myself being asked?
Somehow I suspect that all airlines from now on will have a nuclear option available that does not publicly go above today's going rate. There will always be someone willing to leave for less. If UA had offered $1200 per seat they may have had 20 people to choose from. |
Originally Posted by SATCOS WHIPPING BOY
(Post 9738135)
There will always be someone willing to leave for less. If UA had offered $1200 per seat they may have had 20 people to choose from.
Instead of a few grand they've spent millions, which makes no sense at all - if they had budget authority for millions they would also have had budget authority for the few grand. |
Attorneys for doctor yanked from United flight seeks to preserve evidence Wednesday, April 12th 2017, 4:36 pm EDT By Makayla Ballman, Digital Content Producer CHICAGO, IL (WAVE) - Attorneys for Dr. David Dao, the man who was forcefully pulled off United Airlines flight 3411, have filed an emergency bill of discovery. |
Originally Posted by Airbubba
(Post 9738115)
Looks like the attorneys are going after the CVR on the plane. Remember the naïve days when we were told that it could only be used for safety purposes?
Maybe moot in this case since the plane has probably operated several sectors since Sunday. Cockpit cameras are just around the corner... Attorneys for doctor yanked from United flight seeks to preserve - wave3.com-Louisville News, Weather & Sports |
Claybird,
There is NO way UA Legal is going let this go to court. As to the Chicago Police, they have a long record of paying to victims of police bodily injuries--millions for less than this event. |
Another development in the case, it appears that all three officers were indeed from the Chicago Department of Aviation, not the Chicago Police Department as some earlier reports said:
2 more officers placed on leave after passenger dragged off United flight By Jessica D'Onofrio Updated 12 mins ago CHICAGO (WLS) -- The Chicago Department of Aviation says two more officers have been placed on administrative leave after a Kentucky doctor was dragged off a United flight Sunday. One officer was placed on leave Monday, one day after the incident. CDA said it will not release the names of the officers. |
Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat
(Post 9738142)
So whose clever idea was it to stop at $800, then, and do they still have a job?
Instead of a few grand they've spent millions, which makes no sense at all - if they had budget authority for millions they would also have had budget authority for the few grand. I figure the refund noted above will amount to around $30,000 - $40,000. Add to that the compensation to Dr Dao and the loss in share value then and future losses due to reputation taking a hammering then $4800 to off-load 4 pax seems a bargain :O |
Originally Posted by lomapaseo
(Post 9738106)
Would it be worth it for me to hold out for ten grand to get off a flight the next time if I find myself being asked?
But I guarantee you that rather than offer you the $10K, they'll find someone else who'd be thrilled to deplane for $1,000 or maybe $2,000. |
Originally Posted by Harry Wayfarers
(Post 9738069)
And would I be right in presuming that this happened over a weekend when no management may have been on duty to authorise a King Air or whatever?
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Stand easy, they're not after the crew, they're after United. This is straight from the playbook. |
Before saying that the pax could be legally asked to leave by crew - ask if he:
a) Knew that in advance (as very few pax know) b) Was it explained to him that he had to leave? Both are highly unlikely. We know that United Breaks Guitars: 2008 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Breaks_Guitars And we know that, after being told to stop taking pictures - and COMPLYING - another pax was thrown off: 2013 Thrown Off a United Airlines Flight for Taking Pictures! - Live and Let's Fly (thre is a follow on story link at the bottom of the page) As to the CEO: he made a standard CEO first response based on what he was being told. He will be telling his people that, next time, they'd better tell him the full situation. I don't think he should lose his job but the media can afford to try and unseat him as the outcome is win/win for them. Both of these events happened before Munoz took control. What he needs to point out is that NO ONE learnt a DAMM THING. |
simply beggars the imagination. |
Originally Posted by West Coast
(Post 9738169)
Unintended consequences. The CVR will be in the public domain, therefore the FAA is apt to listen to it. A well documented case at my airline had the FAA take note of a conversation prior to departure where the FO said he was tired and had considered calling off the trip. A number of hours later at the destination, ground personnel marshaled the crew into the gate and clipped the wing of an adjacent aircraft. This on the Captain's side. The crew was found not to be at fault, however the FAA went after the FO for flying fatigued, based off a comment on the CVR. Dismissed but not after many sleepless nights, pun intended.
It is entirely possible that this event will trigger a more substantial review of the current airline rules. The US carriers operate oligopolies or monopolies on most routes, yet they are still regulated as if there were active competition. Mr Munoz's recent about face and sudden shift from intransigent to apologetic probably reflects his belated recognition that the rules might be changed if the public is sufficiently outraged. |
I worked for Continental in London and we hired air taxis when needed to transport spares and Engineers all over Europe - a quick call to Maintrol in Houston was all that was needed as authorisation.
I'm just grateful that the guy wasn't wearing leggings - they would probably have shot him.. |
Originally Posted by West Coast
(Post 9738174)
This because you have you blinders on.
I happen to have spent time at the operations control facility for a major U.S. based carrier of the size we're talking about, and I guarantee you there is plenty of management discretion available to solve operational problems as they arise. There isn't an established process to call some charter service and find out if there's a king aire hanging around doing nothing. Aircraft of that level are expensive |
Originally Posted by noflynomore
(Post 9738179)
If, as stated by UA not enough pax took up the payoff option than is is clear that some would have to be bumped. Here on my planet, if not enough pax took up the payoff option, then it is clear that the payoff offer would need to be increased. |
Originally Posted by Airbubba
(Post 9738115)
Looks like the attorneys are going after the CVR on the plane. Remember the naïve days when we were told that it could only be used for safety purposes?
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Gauges
You may not agree, at least you finally understand the process. It'll be the one that's in place a week, a month and a decade plus from now. |
Originally Posted by West Coast
(Post 9738191)
Stay on task, the point is about releasing the CVR data.
You've been pretty consistently making the pro-authority argument here. Feel differently when it's the CVR tapes? |
Originally Posted by noflynomore
(Post 9738179)
ie after boarding a requirement to move 4 staff appeared, and in order to allow perhaps 2/300 people to fly tomorrow 4 were required to deplane right now? ... If so the reason was sound and perfectly reasonable.
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Originally Posted by West Coast
(Post 9738174)
There isn't an established process to call some charter service and find out if there's a king aire hanging around doing nothing.
Aircraft of that level are expensive and tasked pretty heavily to afford them, not a guarantee ones available. |
Originally Posted by Gauges and Dials
(Post 9738192)
Somewhat off-topic, but it wouldn't be all that hard to mount the argument that investigating an incident that resulted in a passenger in the hospital and blood all over the aircraft interior might be safety-related.
And, I'm sure it's a TSA incident as well. |
Was he arrested at any point?
The passenger chosen to be dumped was slightly built, compared to some of the other passengers whom would be far more difficult to manhandle. |
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