Really Hard Landing 3.5g
 

Did they get a proper inspection prior to the return flight.

Accident: Germania A321 at Fuerteventura on Jul 16th 2016, hard landing at +3.5G

3.5g and the plane flew back on schedule....what about a tech log entry and inspection. Plus what on earth was going on with the walk around after.........

Cracking decision making..... :ugh:

It isn't always obvious to pilots if a heavy landing has occurred. This is due to the de-rotation affecting the amount of 'g' felt forward of the centre of gravity.

Still...

I don't understand "de-rotation" please.

Is this no rotation, reduced rotation, or rotation in the opposite sense?

3.5 Gs ?
 

I have not seen a g meter since the old flying fighter days. I stand corrected there was one in a Pitts that I flew years ago.


The rotation effect? I think, I need to wave the Red Bull flag here.


A hard landing is a hard landing and needs to be entered in the log, with the data to include landing weight and other conditions. The item needs to be cleared by the tech's. First the tech does a quick visual of the gear and fuselage. If further inspection is needed, panels start coming off.


Many moons ago, operating DC-9's we had one airframe that had some nice wavy creases just forward of the engine mounts. Research showed it was several years old and had been cleared.


Some where on the web is a short video of a DC-9 or maybe MD-9 on a text flight that after touch down the airframe breaks aft of the wing.


I think there will be some retraining of this crew.

Rotation in the opposite sense - pitching down.

Here is a link:
 

The SLF sitting on the main spar would have known all about it. Wouldn't be surprised if compressed discs were treated. Been there, (KBOS, night approach, 33L over water), had the treatment :()

Germania says it was inspected after the landing, no damages found, inspected again after return flight, QAR data taken, no damage found, also say 3.5G is not confirmed by QAR data.
Touchdown apparently happened while rejecting the landing.
Aircraft will get a new landing gear now which would have been due in winter anyway.

Chesty Morgan
 

It is obvious on an Airbus, you get an automatic Load 15 report, which tells you that you have just F***** up your landing. :=
Aircraft should not depart until that Load 15 report has been verified. :{

There is no question that the pilots would have known that they'd had a heavy landing - the de-rotation idea is nonsense.

Too much simulator time worrying about headshrinker horse**** CRM and not enough real aircraft handling, plus the current attitude of throw it on, brake hard and get off the RW fast, rather than the 'BOAC' landings required from RAF air transport pilots of the past - and which we taught our students.

Apart from 'line training' U/T pilot landings, the worst CAT landings I've experienced as a passenger were in the earlier times of the A321 when it was clear that the Airbus figures for Vref were too low. I spoke with a colleague who told me why - and that in his company they normally add at least 5 knots to the Airbus figures for the A321, which improved things significantly.

Smooth landings seem to be a thing of the past, but no amount of routine 'firm' landings could insulate pilots from knowing when they've had a very heavy landing.

I can't imagine how that landing would not be obvious to the pilots.

Beagle, they may suspect but they won't know. Suspicion would be enough for me to book it, but not for everybody.

The de-rotation thing is not an idea nor is it nonsense.

By the way it's hard landing not "heavy".

Memo to self: don't sit over the landing gear

It helps to sit far forward or far back as the flex of the fuselage greatly diminishes the G's felt there

According the youtube link there were seven aboard te dc9 with the broken off tail, of which one had a broken ankle, no deaths.

Ok if you don't believe youtube, here is a short report. No fatalities.

https://www.fss.aero/accident-report...report_key=169

They all died? Really? In my experience, most hard landings come as a result of flaring too little / too late. A float can be moderated by easing back pressure on the column/sidestick - tweaking AOA - .....NOT PUSHING! I do find it hard to believe that they didn't think 3.5G was "firm". I've experienced 1.8 which was very noticeable.........

If memory serves me correctly. This https://www.fss.aero/accident-report...report_key=489 was "only" 2.8g

It does matter where you sit
 

For those sceptics who doubt the 'derotation' theory, please refer to http://www.ukfsc.co.uk/files/FOCUS%2...Focus%2064.pdf for a fuller explanation of the centre of percussion and its effect on the perception of any landing (that link takes you to a pdf of the whole issue 64 of the UKFSC Focus magazine, the relevant article is on page 4). Really good landings feel good everywhere, but some bad ones feel OK at the front but even worse at the far back. Never dismiss the cabin crew's opinions, they are often better placed to judge. The article also explains why the effect is more evident the faster you are relative to Vref. Sad but true.

Hmmm. Germania taking a leaf out of THY's Book of Disingenuous Excuses ?

Aircraft was reportedly out of service for almost 7 weeks - those skin repairs can be tricky ...

Reference the Load 15 report, be careful if your expecting it a it can be switched off in the ACMS software.

I was working for a carrier that was having a number of hard landings that were being picked up by the FDM program but not reported in the Tech Log and on investigating we asked why they were not written up. The flight crew response was that there was no printed Load 15 report. With a little digging the auto print function had been turned off so the crew were expecting something they were never going to get.

So if you think its hard write it up and let engineering do the rest.

At my outfit an acars printout is generated whenever a landing of more than (i believe) 2G is made. That certainly makes you aware of the severity of the "landing" that you just made.
Also, the printout is automatically sent to the maintenance guys at home base. So there is no way that you would be able to keep it quiet and pretend that 3.5G wouldnt warrant an inspection.

I think the "when and what" are known. The "who, why, where and how" need a little more work. Again we are not provided with enough information to suggest wrong doing on anyone's part. So I'll not suggest that we string up the crew just yet nor is retraining necessarily required. What needs to be discovered with some urgency is how this aircraft was able to depart and why this went unreported. It suggests, but I have little evidence, that Germania's Ops. Control was not working well that day.

PM

Although the total mass well forward of CofG is not that great, it still has to be accelerated from its touchdown angle. I think that would make a significant difference to the pilot's perception of the feel, however, seeing the concrete coming up to getcha after the wheels have touched should be a clue.

It's strange how these things happen. One FO I routinely flew with did everything beautifully - until one day he didn't. In the last 50', with the speed correct, he suddenly flew at the ground. I was pulling probably within one second, and just managed to skate it on more or less flat.

There was just no explanation how a seemingly competent young man could, not just allow this to happen, but seem to actively cause it to happen.

Double D's with broken straps
 

Many moons ago, I was a panel monkey on a 72. The Captain or it could have been the Co-Captain dropped one in on 18 in DCA. As we turn off the runway the cockpit door opens and this huge bra with broken straps lands on my table. Those were the days......

Ha! The stuff of the classic Figment cartoon :ok:

Okay, I know this is the serious thread, but this has to go in here - though it'll be only moments before it's kicked out.

I'd always wondered where her bra had gone.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7.../BiiiigHat.jpg

mustangsally, you made my day! :))

BTW, there is also a little longer video of the DC-9 accident on youtube:

Don't you just love dry Tower wit?
Some years back, a Thai 743 'dropped one in' on arrival at YSSY.
The word from the tower was simply .. "Thai xxx, when you've put your teeth back in, ...."
We cracked up.

When an A320 had its heavy landing at KOS 5/7/2007, the initial G 3.15 first bounce, 2.75 on the landing. Substantial damage, and maintenance action carried out by engineers being flown out, before flying again. AAIB report gives full details.
Just how was it, that the initial visual inspection failed to reveal any damage???

I was in the cockpit of a heavy 4 engine jet, just before the main wheels touched, the stick shaker rattled. The pilot was an ex WW2 pathfinder, on the mosquito. He had the skills to do this at will. Now that was a pilot, not a driver.

There is just absolutely no way in hell that if the landing was really 3.5g the pilots wouldn't have felt it.

Doesn't matter if they were sat 800m forward of the wheels on duck feather pillows :}

The worst I've ever felt was 1.8g on a 777 & I can tell you there was no way we didn't feel it. Amazingly the cockpit door failed closed until all the pax disembarked :p

I watched from the jumpseat of a Gemini MD-11 jumpseat as a captain made the hardest landing I'd ever seen. It was in Campinas Brazil.

We congratulated ourselves on surviving as we slowed to taxi speed. Then the tower said, "Geemeenee, notify your maintenance, you left a piece of the plane on the runway...."

It was one of the "canoes" - the fiberglass flap track covers.....

' I was in the cockpit of a heavy 4 engine jet, just before the main wheels touched, the stick shaker rattled. The pilot was an ex WW2 pathfinder, on the mosquito. He had the skills to do this at will. Now that was a pilot, not a driver.'


No, that was a guy who got way too slow, if you're activating the stick shaker just before touch down on a four engine jet you're doing it WRONG.

I remember years ago similar idiots would pull the throttles back to idle on downwind and do a power off approach in the 727 'managing energy'.

They were local heroes and legends in their own mind. Thank God those fools are long gone. :D

Hope this was written up so maintenance can do the correct visual inspection ...

I remember a marginal director of flight ops decided to be a 727 captain. Didn't have much experience to begin with. Landed so hard, a door warning annunciator light illuminated. On the return leg, he tried to taxi with the ground guy still having his headset plugged in. For other reason, he was let go from the airline(but not the first time he was let go from an airline) :):):)

Stilton

Correct, he was doing it wrong but he always got a good landing from it.

The person who pulled off the 3.5 g landing "did it right" and still smashed the aircraft. Who would you rather have flying you?

Anyone else.

Smooth doesn't equate to good either.