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Pilots threaten to strike over fatigue concerns - Telegraph
Pilots threaten to strike over fatigue concerns - Daily Telegraph
Some airlines are fatiguing pilots by forcing them to work for 20 hours without an adequate break, sparking concerns about safety and raising the prospect of strike action towards the end of the summer holidays, the pilots’ union has warned. Brian Strutton, the new general secretary of the British Airline Pilots’ Association (BAPLA), said that employees at one major, unidentified carrier are considering industrial action over the issue which, if approved, would take disrupt flights in September. He claimed new flight time rules introduced by the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) in February had made it easier for airlines to force pilots to fly for longer and that “some real horror stories being reported to us”. Mr Strutton, who took over as head of the union earlier this month, said it had compiled “really worrying stats” that raised broader concerns about safety. Some pilots are working for 20 hours with no time for rest breaks between flight turnarounds, the BALPA head claimed. "We’ve just done a survey and a touch under half of pilots have told us that they’ve been compromised by fatigue at least once a month this year,” he said. “And by compromised, it’s a polite way of saying dropping off or losing concentration at the controls.” |
Post Brexit can we revert to UK FTL.
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20 hours FDP wiithout a break - not possible .
Maybe possible standby plus FDP but that was possible under cap371 Maybe awake time And fatigue once a month he means sleepiness e.g the need go sleep Slightly different meaning |
Not under EASA where sleepiness also infers fatigue.
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Pilot fatigue
Could time zone changes in short periods of time be a factor ?
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Mr Angry, your first assertion, though doubtless correct in itself is rendered irrelevant and misleading by your removal of the of the word "adequate" from the original statement.
How facts are skewed! Are you a journo or sump'n? |
Mr Angry , when was the last time you operated 108 block short haul hours in a month , they comprised multi sector (up to 6 ) days into some of the worlds busiest airspace and airports with the odd deep night to a black hole Greek island thrown in .
Oh and there were 490 sectors in the past 12 months and 800 hours. Be pleased to hear how you avoid fatigue when you do it ? |
20 hours without an adequate break then. I still can't work out the maths sorry chaps
Nil further I don't doubt the numbers I was highlighting there is a subtle difference between fatigue and sleepiness . |
What is the assessment of the new BALPA guy? Would he take a dispute all the way to strike action? |
Sleepy/fatigue, whatever, they both make you unfit to fly.
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I was highlighting there is a subtle difference between fatigue and sleepiness . Science is in it's infancy regarding the brain/ sleep/ fatigue. I don't think you can highlight something that ten different specialists in the field will argue ten different angles on. |
ten different specialists in the field will argue ten different angles on.
Sounds like a bar full of pilots. Surely the only person who can assess the condition accurately is the individual affected. Knackered is knackered. Each knows their own capabilities and limitations, not a bunch of 'experts'. It can not be measured; there is no plug in machine; no series of tests; no datum for that individual to assess against. It is subjective, opinionated and up to the individual. If someone was strong-armed it would make an interesting court case. Although there was a RYR case, a few years ago I believe, where refusal to fly an extra sector brought on dismissal. What was the outcome? |
Where can I read about the new easa FTL? Haven't been in EASA-land since JAR.
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Can I suggest you avoid terms, as feeling sleepy if you contact crewing.
I am unable to do this duty due to fatigue,would be more apt and avoid the phone ringing off the hook from the duty pilot. If a duty is fatiguing ,then put in an MOR about it.They can't ignore all of them.:ok: |
Apu inop, there is lots of stuff here:
https://www.eurocockpit.be/pages/fli...me-limitations Basically , companies can now roster long flights ,Cyprus rotation, early in the morning and it is only after a lot of fatigue reports that the schedule will be altered. Some companies seem to be using fatigue limits as a rostering target. |
What fatigue are we talking about?
I recently did over 40 hours duty in three days, and it scored a 1/5 fatigue grading. Proof I was not fatigued - stamped and airline official. Come, come. |
APU more stuff here as well.
www.understandingeasa2016ftl.wordpress.com/ |
Don't worry; I have mates in one LoCo who were informed by medical experts in NASA that they could not be fatigued, but were too knackered to watch the whole video & read the full report. Strange times.
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There is a big difference between fatigue and tiredness (sleepiness). Fatigue is longterm and is health related whereas tiredness may only last for one duty - granted the consequences may be the same. For whatever reason if you are not fit don't fly; that is your responsibility.
Tiredness is also often self induced or at least under an individual's control. It is up to everyone to take personal responsibility for their rest; you should know what hours and lifestyle the job entailed before you started; if you are not suited you shouldn't have become a commercial pilot. I'm not belittling fatigue, it is a serious issue and should be tackled as such but I've seen too many use it as a scapegoat for their own irresponsible behaviour. If fatigue is not believed it will not be addressed by the companies or the industry. Comments such as the one in the lead article 'Some airlines are fatiguing pilots by forcing them to work for 20 hours without an adequate break' is not correct and consequently will deminish this serious safety issue. |
Why is there still pride in being able to perform whilst being fatigued? Oh Doctors! Thou are so vain glorious! Errors become you..
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Tiredness is also often self induced or at least under an individual's control. It is up to everyone to take personal responsibility for their rest;
So there I was, back in the day, with a summertime 05.30 report. Going to bed nice an early, like a true professional; listening to the Caribbean music from my neighbours BBQ and the slamming of car doors as they left at midnight. Or, trying to sleep in the crew hotel, after a night flight, to the sound of other crews coming & going and the soft music of vacuum cleaners. There was not much 'under my control'. you should know what hours and lifestyle the job entailed before you started; if you are not suited you shouldn't have become a commercial pilot. Get real. It all depends who you work for and on what fleet. Starting out as a shiny new PPL/CPL you have no ida where you will end up. There is not such thing as 'the life of a commercial pilot'. The spectrum of possibilities is huge. It is also one reason why I changed airlines 8 times; as we'll as a couple going bust. |
Stiglet quote" Tiredness is also often self induced or at least under an individual's control. It is up to everyone to take personal responsibility for their rest; you should know what hours and lifestyle the job entailed before you started; if you are not suited you shouldn't have become a commercial pilot."
Obviously the ramblings of a mgt pilot or non pilot.I have just finished a 5 day with 2 of those days at 7.59 hrs(block)12.20(duty) on the back side of the clock,I never induced anything,and the pairing was certainly not under my control.Its what we do!!Its called flying in shatty weather,being at high levels of responsiveness,IMC approaches etc etc...I want to Chunder when I hear .."you shouldn't have become a commercial pilot"crap.Get a few hours under your belt sonny,work for shat airlines and a few of them,and then come back and tell Me I should have known what I was in for ,STREWTH!!! ,as the previous poster put it,GET REAL! |
Some of you are missing my point. I agree fatigue is a serious issue that needs to be addressed. And I agree it does happen. What I'm saying is don't use statements such as 'forcing them to work for 20 hours without an adequate break'; because I don't acceept that is correct. If I'm wrong go on prove it, show me the evidence of that roster. If you can't, management, the authorities and the public will just ignore you. And don't use fatigue as an excuse if you could/should have mitigated against it.
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Stiglet,not sure what you do,but when you say it's a "serious issue" and "needs to be addressed",we've been addressing this issue for decades.Let me be the bearer of bad news,it's addressed by airlines and governing bodies who look at legalities,and what they can get away with,please don't sugarcoat it.
Your sentiments are in the right place,no doubt,I could post numerous rosters and pairings that are legal but very very stupid in there design.It satisfys companies from a "legal" point,it does not satisfy how we humans operate at various times.Easy to say it needs to addressed,the point is, it's not!! Nothing personal mate,but you will find on this board many posters that fly grueling schedules,been there,done that.You talk of mgt and the public finding out about these practices ,REALLY??, the airlines have been exposed for years about scheduling issues,the result,Part 117 in the US.What a cockup that is.They say they care,but we know what pax and mgt want,we are not always in that equation hence the type of schedules one has to fly. Personally,I've never favored strikes action,you generally lose more than you'll ever gain,but sometimes,you gotta give it a try,if the general consensus believe it's the only way to achieve an outcome,.....good luck to them... |
When it gets to the point that long serving, responsible and mature employees are walking around in a daze, getting grumpy at their spouses and kids, using their annual leave to recuperate at home so that they feel they can cope with facing the alarm clock again, constantly talking about how they can get to a point financially where they can change jobs and their families won't suffer, and openly talking about concerns for their long term health.......we have a problem. Not to mention the degraded performance that can be expected in high workload situations and how that impacts on the safety of the passengers.
The pilots know it, the sleep specialists know it, the wives know it, and management can't comprehend it because the roster report says you only did 180 hours duty in the whole month. All the people involved in making the rules, administering them, creating the rosters, choosing the number of pilots required to fit a schedule, conducting medical exams........none of them actually roll out of bed and do it, not for a year or a month or a week or a day. They are however highly motivated to get fewer pilots flying more hours offering cheaper tickets to a greater market share. |
Well said Framer, welcome to EASA FTL.
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Call me crazy. Call me paranoid or just call me a downright conspiracy theorist but the fact we can now do increased duty times from reports checking in before 06:00 local wouldn't be anything at all to do with the fact that many low cost airlines have schedules with rotations leaving at that kind of time in the morning, would it? Would it?!?
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Tiredness is also often self induced or at least under an individual's control. It is up to everyone to take personal responsibility for their rest; you should know what hours and lifestyle the job entailed before you started; if you are not suited you shouldn't have become a commercial pilot. (At my own expense, I have installed black-out blinds, extra sound proofing in my bedroom, and headphones on the telly downstairs for Mrs Uplinker). Company's will tend to roster us and work us right up to the "legal" limits, since that will help maximise their profits and minimise their operating costs. But how many EASA officials and managers do you ever see flying a run of earlies? Ironic really considering that all airlines will state that they consider safety to be their first priority? The pilot community should stand up to this erosion of safety and there is absolutely no shame in doing so. In fact to be honest I think the travelling public would expect us to. . |
And it's not just dangerous whilst we're in the air. The other day I had an alarm call at around 05:00 local for a twelve hour day and am then faced with the prospect of negotiating a busy motorway whilst absolutely dog tired to then get home at the end of the duty. Where is the employer's duty of care there?
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I'm sorry, stiglet, but your faith in peoples ability to see the future is amazing.
you should know what hours and lifestyle the job entailed before you started; if you are not suited you shouldn't have become a commercial pilot. |
Venting anger on here might be good for folk. I don't know. However, mass Chirping and MORsing might help a bit more. In the long run, if you want the beancounters to take note, then ONLY pilots can effectively strike. BALPA and IALPA do not create strikes. Feelings must be strong enough in your community.
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Press Inquiry
Hi everyone. My name is Paula Slier, and I am an RT (Russia Today) reporter. After investigating the causes of the FlyDubai crash in March, we are really concerned about the welfare of pilots, and we want to help expose airline companies that systematically exploit their pilots by making them fly unreasonable and fatigue-inducing schedules, amongst other unfair practices. We are looking for people who are willing to talk to us about this issue. Anyone with information please contact me at [email protected]
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Paula, Could you post us details of the Russian Flight Time Limitations so that we could see what we could learn from them? (And while you're about it, a few statistics on Russian airline safety over the past 5 to 10 years?)
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I was 'in the game' from 1980 until recently. FTL's in 4 different regimes before JAR. The arguments I read on hear about:
limits being targets, lack of common sense in rostering, vicious attitude by management, treatment of humans as machines, the manipulation of FTL's to suit the range of a/c, the manipulation of FTL's to suit the schedules of the expanding LoCo's, the lack of sympathy/understanding of management to the differences in individuals (owls & larks), the constant discussion about tiredness v fatigue and how you can not be fatigued because it's legal, how pilots are their own worst enemies in not saying no to stupid rosters, etc. etc. It's like I went to sleep in the 80's & 90's and woke up last week listening to the same stories as if nothing had changed. Oh, and then I found out things had indeed become worse. Where the heck have the unions been all that missing time? When a strike happens on these issues it is too late. The pax have become used to the situation. They think that if they can be up and on time at 03.45 then so can the pilot. Daft, but true. |
Hmmm, Perhaps I am being naive, (or have misunderstood the post), but I don't know why Trossie is being aggressive towards someone who purports to want to expose the issues?
I think we need some leadership on this problem, and who else but the Unions? Companies know that not 100% of crew who are fatigued will put in a report, and yet they can point to the lack of reports and use it as 'proof' that "the crews are quite happy with the FTL's, and that the rosters are not fatiguing". I always try to urge crews who feel fatigued to put in a report, but only the other week a CM said 'yes but that would show that we can't cope' which is the whole (bloody) point :rolleyes: |
The Unite union made a video last year in association with the ETF saying how marvelous the new EASA FTL are .
ETF changed their stance on these FTL's at the last minute when they were originally being voted on in Europe. https://youtu.be/ZGa9M_zqiwU |
Originally Posted by framer
(Post 9432299)
When it gets to the point that long serving, responsible and mature employees are walking around in a daze, getting grumpy at their spouses and kids, using their annual leave to recuperate at home so that they feel they can cope with facing the alarm clock again, constantly talking about how they can get to a point financially where they can change jobs and their families won't suffer, and openly talking about concerns for their long term health.......we have a problem. Not to mention the degraded performance that can be expected in high workload situations and how that impacts on the safety of the passengers.
The pilots know it, the sleep specialists know it, the wives know it, and management can't comprehend it because the roster report says you only did 180 hours duty in the whole month. All the people involved in making the rules, administering them, creating the rosters, choosing the number of pilots required to fit a schedule, conducting medical exams........none of them actually roll out of bed and do it, not for a year or a month or a week or a day. They are however highly motivated to get fewer pilots flying more hours offering cheaper tickets to a greater market share. Add to that the fact that almost all my flights are as Line Instructor, and half the time I feel I do not have much to share with the trainee. I am just there. |
(I recognise the name Paula Slier, I think I saw a report she made a few years ago, from South African flying perspective. Might not be a Russian troll actually!)
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20 hours is definitely possible...
Stiglet, Mr Angry and others... The article says "Work for 20 hours without rest". It does not say "20 hours FDP without rest". My airline regularly have me working for 20 hours without rest. We would normally check in early for a 12-13 hours FDP, sometimes with the 1 hour planned extension. After the flight we are positioning by either train, taxi, flight (or a combination) to another city. Thus extending the total duty to around 20 hours. We will then check in to a hotel for a 20-26 hour rest period. That means going from either day duty to night duty or vice versa. Then we do the full thing once again... While I agree that the last couple of hours is not a Flight Duty and thus not a safety issue in itself, it does have a very large effect on the long term fatigue. A duty cycle such as that takes me days to recover from. My sleep pattern gets disrupted and my intestinal rhythm gets disturbed. With small children at home it gets even more difficult to recover during your Off days. (But of course... Pilots should not have families) |
My sleep pattern gets disrupted and my intestinal rhythm gets disturbed.
Absolutely true and yet given no credence. Been there & done that. Guess what; your intestinal rhythm gets disturbed so your sleep pattern gets disrupted so your ..............intest.....OMG. The downward spiral to an unhealthy life. But never mind, it's legal and you pass the medical. Quality of life, piss poor. And who creates it? Rostering. And what do they say when you complain? "it's not our fault; it's legal, there is no one else and are you refusing a duty?" That makes you mad; but never mind; all the RST training tells you not to fly if stressed out with close personal problems. So you phone the very people who have created your personal problem to say you are unfit for the next utterly anti-social knackering roster combination. Another head-banging downward spiral. Then you meet a friend who works for a proper outfit who have roster bids and limits and guidelines and sensible rosters and friendly rosters, and you wonder how the heck did you ever end up if your hell-hole. And they produce just as much productivity as you do, but in a manageable manner. So to those who say you should have known what you were getting into before you got into it.......don't be daft. It ain't like that at all. It is good luck or bad luck, but it shouldn't be that way. |
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