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-   -   GPS Jamming West Coast USA (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/580052-gps-jamming-west-coast-usa.html)

Ancient-Mariner 7th Jun 2016 21:28

GPS Jamming West Coast USA
 
FAA Warns of GPS Outages This Month During Mysterious Tests on the West Coast
Whilst during my sea going career I received Nav Warnings re GPS jamming by the UK military some years back, what concerns me with this test is the issue with Embraer Phenom 300 "aircraft flight stability controls".
GPS Interference Notam For Southwest - AVweb flash Article That seems to suggest something other than simple jamming transmissions on 1575.42 MHz or 1227.60 MHz.


Cheers!

vapilot2004 8th Jun 2016 13:38

Embraer's "aircraft flight stability control" computer system must in some way rely primarily on GPS. Odd, one would think the primary reference for any stability augmentation system would be IRU data with GPS and/or NAV inputs for position information only.

ATC Watcher 8th Jun 2016 13:52

A bit of overreaction if you ask me . Such military exercises with tempo GPS outages are also occurring in my country and are frequently NOTAM'ed.
Not really a problem. My not-so-expensive GPS in my single engine aircraft receives and process GLONASS signals to compensate for that anyway.
I have difficulty to believe the Embraer story.

neilki 8th Jun 2016 16:19

@ATC Watcher. Believe it Brother.. http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/m...11_EMB-300.pdf

ATC Watcher 8th Jun 2016 17:35

Thanks neilki, so it is true ! but who in his right mind designed such a system ?
Surely Embraer knows that GPS is owned by the US military and that in case of crisis/war they have the key to degrade it or even switch it off. So there must be a back up no ?

DingerX 8th Jun 2016 21:45

That's pretty crazy. Even if the FAA says it, I still refuse to believe it. I mean, this ain't an airliner, but you're telling me that you get all that from jamming GPS? I mean, one or two problems, okay, but this is like giving every idiot with a couple hundred bucks the ability to build a "land immediately" box they can carry on board. Gives a whole new sense to the notion of a business meeting that "headed south".

Wageslave 8th Jun 2016 21:51

Equally, who in their right mind certificated such a system? How widely is this business known, or is this a first heads-up?

underfire 9th Jun 2016 00:39

widespread or anything other than very, very local jamming would take an incredible amount of power. Even if one could jam the GPS, the IRU would cover nav for quite some time. (I guess unless you are in an Embraer, which appears to just fall out of the sky)

Bushfiva 9th Jun 2016 05:04

End-of life spec is -160 dbW at the surface, so the signals are reasonably easily interfered with. Or one could simply use the WAAS network to transmit bogus correction data, perhaps.

Dont Hang Up 9th Jun 2016 05:41

The FAA text is annoyingly ambiguous. It refers to warning messages but without any indication of whether the crew experienced any actual control issues. One has to assume without an explicit statement that they did not, but it is remiss of them to issue a statement that "begs the question" in this way.

It is perfectly plausible that, with the loss of a suitable, synchronising time reference, the warning system became unable to function correctly and began to issue frequent and spurious warning messages.

Not a happy situation, but one that is more credible than inertially referenced control systems that not only need a GPS signal, but also malfunction without it.

chromakey 10th Jun 2016 21:17


Originally Posted by underfire (Post 9403012)
widespread or anything other than very, very local jamming would take an incredible amount of power.

Why do you believe that? Such a jamming signal would be competing with a power-budget constrained transmitter on satellites orbiting at approximately 20200 km altitude. I see commercial "GPS Jammer" pocket-sized handheld devices that apparently function effectively with 300mW output power on omni antennas. It would be a trivial RF engineering exercise to put out something quite a bit more, you could paint such a beam on any number of targets with a directional antenna.

The L1 carrier wave is at 1575.42 MHz. (wikipedia) In the frequency allocation filing the L1 C/A power is listed as 25.6 Watts. The Antenna gain is listed at 13 dBi. Thus, based on the frequency allocation filing, the power would be about 500 Watts (27 dBW). Now, the free space path loss from 21000 km is about 182 dB. Take the 500 Watts (27 dBW) and subtract the free space path loss (27 - 182) and you get -155 dBW. The end of life spec is -160 dBW, which leaves a 5 dB margin. (GPS Satellite Power Output)

The low power level of GPS was discussed previously here, at: http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/48302...hosen-gps.html

Three Lima Charlie 11th Jun 2016 00:21

The U.S. Navy has cancelled the planned GPS outage in Southern California. The FAA and many aviation organizations put pressure on the Navy to reduce or eliminate the tests and the impact to aviation, naval, and land users of GPS.

Here is a link to the FAA notice about the EMB-300 yaw damper problem. Requires the crew to decrease speed below 240 KTS and descend.
http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/m...11_EMB-300.pdf

underfire 12th Jun 2016 01:23


Such a jamming signal would be competing with a power-budget constrained transmitter on satellites orbiting at approximately 20200 km altitude.
You have a moving target with multiple signals coming from multiple directions. In addition, the IRU would cover the temporary outage.
Tracking and jamming one aircraft may be possible with low power, if you could track it, but to jam an area would take a wide beam, and that takes power for that altitude.

Koan 12th Jun 2016 01:50

Our crews were getting GPS jamming a few months ago into RKSI.
It was North Korea, reportedly they get into this every few years when they are jacked up over something.

aterpster 12th Jun 2016 12:16

Three Lima Charlie:


Here is a link to the FAA notice about the EMB-300 yaw damper problem. Requires the crew to decrease speed below 240 KTS and descend.
http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/m...11_EMB-300.pdf
I know of the individual who issued that document. I am sure it wasn't issued casually. Sure doesn't say much for the certification of that type aircraft.

khorton 12th Jun 2016 14:40

Which agency approved the AHRS that apparently requires GPS to function correctly?

pattern_is_full 12th Jun 2016 16:39

Per Embraer's site: 300 Certified by

ANAC (Brazil) and FAA (US) 12/2009
EASA (EU) 5/2010

I guess we've moved on from automation-dependent pilots to automation-dependent aircraft....

khorton 12th Jun 2016 19:22

The root of the problem seems to be in the AHRS, which is I believe is a Rockwell-Collins product, TSO'd by the FAA.

underfire 13th Jun 2016 03:49


It was North Korea, reportedly they get into this every few years when they are jacked up over something.
Yes, that Korean corridor is a bit dicey...I suppose that the power would be an issue for NKOR!


I know of the individual who issued that document. I am sure it wasn't issued casually. Sure doesn't say much for the certification of that type aircraft.
Exactly, look at who certified the 787 firebird!

Capn Bloggs 13th Jun 2016 08:11


Originally Posted by Pattern is full
I guess we've moved on from automation-dependent pilots to automation-dependent aircraft....

Like Like Like! :D

MG23 13th Jun 2016 21:53


Surely Embraer knows that GPS is owned by the US military and that in case of crisis/war they have the key to degrade it or even switch it off
Turning GPS off during a crisis would just turn that crisis into a disaster. Pretty much the whole world now relies on GPS for precision timing, and many systems would shut down soon after it disappeared.

ATC Watcher 14th Jun 2016 08:01

MG23: I was at the ICAO meeting when the MoU was signed between the US and ICAO at the end of the 90's. the clause was there.
Since then there has been in 2007 a declaration during an ICAO assembly by a US rep that said :

Today, on behalf of President Bush, I am pleased to announce that the next generation of GPS satellites (GPS III) will deliver signals without any compromise in precision -- guaranteed. That is because the United States will remove the "selective availability" capability from that system. Eliminating this source of potential uncertainty in GPS performance for civil uses will make the system even more attractive to the world's users.


The reasoning was at the time that the US could not accept that " forgein hostile forces " use GPS to guide weapons aimed at their own troops.
This clause was also used to obtain funding for Galileo in Europe.

As far as I know ( and I welcome if someone here can correct me( the clause is still there. Everybody hangs on the 2007 declaration but GPS is still owned by the US military ( although managed by a joint US military/ civil body)
Interesting is what is written on the gps.gov web site FAQ :


The United States has no intent to ever use SA again. To ensure that potential adversaries do not use GPS, the military is dedicated to the development and deployment of regional denial capabilities in lieu of global degradation.
Hopefully you do fly an Embraer in a potential "Regional denial part of the world " .

Less Hair 14th Jun 2016 12:57

Couldn't known positions of Navaids like VORs be used as a reference, to cross-calibrate any nav equipment on board at any time even without a valid GPS signal? That should be good at least for IFR and non precision approaches.

MG23 14th Jun 2016 13:37


MG23: I was at the ICAO meeting when the MoU was signed between the US and ICAO at the end of the 90's. the clause was there.
Obviously they can shut GPS down. Equally obviously, it would be a disaster as many essential IT services around the world that use it for precision timing shut down within minutes to hours.

And pointless now there are a couple more systems that will work just as well as GPS for targeting bombs.

A-FLOOR 14th Jun 2016 13:40

Less Hair: The problem is not nav precision, it is the yaw damper. No yaw damper means no autopilot, which means no RVSM.
AHRS-only arcraft with no GPS signal can still use air data, magnetometers and DME/DME autotuning to determine the aircraft's position.

Less Hair 14th Jun 2016 13:44

Has the US military ever given a guarantee to civilian users that their GPS will work at any time? Guess no. How could certified systems onboard commercial aircraft/private jets be made dependent on working military GPS then?

megan 14th Jun 2016 17:06

Back to sleep, it's all been cancelled.

Ancient-Mariner 14th Jun 2016 17:14

Until the next time...

underfire 15th Jun 2016 04:05

selective availability did not shut GPS down, it was simply less accurate.

LeadSled 15th Jun 2016 05:02

Folks,
There is a feature article on GPS vulnerability in the latest Aviation Week, including pointing out the easy availability of cheap hand held jambers and spoofers.
Given that Airservices Australia's plans will result in us being far more dependent on GPS than any other country, it is "food for thought".

ATC Watcher 15th Jun 2016 07:14

MG23 :

And pointless now there are a couple more systems that will work just as well as GPS for targeting bombs.
True but think how many last generation GPS dependent US manufactured weapons were given freely to or "taken" by now hostile forces . Think Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq Syria, Libya, African rebel groups of all kind , etc...
I read even that recently quite a few last generation US tanks given to Iraq forces have now been taken over by ISIS, and that the same models are fighting each other in Faluja.
If you were a US military and someone was targeting your forces with one of those and you had a possibility to switch their precision off , would not you do it ?

GPS was primarily a military guidance system ( just like ORAN-C was) they allow civilians to use it but things like IT clocks synchronization of Embraer Yaw dampers was not what they had in mind when designing it.

Why do you think we Europeans spend billions developing Galileo ?

Less Hair 15th Jun 2016 13:06

Will Galileo have a guaranteed civil availability at any time?

Ian W 15th Jun 2016 13:22

Galileo is a civil system European Space Agency and EU have funded it. So that would indicate it is intended for civil use. One of the reasons it was initially planned was the potential unforecastable loss of GPS precision due to a US government action.

Ancient-Mariner 15th Jun 2016 14:17

Looks like the UK MoD are having jamming exercises in July.


GPS jamming exercises | Ofcom

Three Lima Charlie 15th Jun 2016 15:56

New FAA notice just issued for Las Vegas GPS Interference Testing, June 18.

https://www.faasafety.gov/files/noti...t_Advisory.pdf

Nieuport28 18th Jun 2016 02:55


Originally Posted by underfire (Post 9406992)
Exactly, look at who certified the 787 firebird!

Adolescent response at best, and totally off topic.

Capn Bloggs 19th Jun 2016 11:11


Originally Posted by Leadsled
Given that Airservices Australia's plans will result in us being far more dependent on GPS than any other country, it is "food for thought".

Given that Australia has traffic levels 1/20th of those of the USA (isn't that right, Leddie), and that Australia has a comprehensive Backup Navigation Network based on ground-based navaids, including ILSs, if the Navstar system went down, there should be no major problem getting back on the ground. As said above, if Navstar fell over, the world would stop, not just a few Aussie aeroplanes...

edmundronald 19th Jun 2016 12:32

Although multi-standard systems are safer than single-standard , one can presume that in the event of a "warm" conflict eg. Ukraine, electronic warfare would make civiilan navigation systems the first casualty.

Whether at some point during a "warm" conflict some clever and deniable kid in Maryland will propose making team red's presidential aircraft or even a tourist craft land 100 feet under the tarmac is a different question; I am sure that neither Boeing nor Airbus like the idea, as once this bell has been rung it can never again be unrung.

Another good reason for having two pairs of trained Mark I eyeballs sitting at the pointy end of the aircraft instead of Roby McRobot.

Three Lima Charlie 19th Jun 2016 13:36

The EC-130H Compass Call aircraft can listen to communications traffic (analog and digital) and jam almost every type of signal from VHF to radar frequencies. So there goes your cell phone, wifi and GPS within a 10 mile radius.

mickjoebill 20th Jun 2016 11:21


Obviously they can shut GPS down. Equally obviously, it would be a disaster as many essential IT services around the world that use it for precision timing shut down within minutes to hours.
Perhaps the jamming exercise is intended to secretly test backup systems of major infrastructure?


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