Isn't that a "given" on the basis that you must have read the data successfully to enable you to state that you have made a successful repair to it.

Ref the point regarding Coroner's enquiry versus criminal court, surely you have to establish the facts first (or at the very least, the chronological chain of events) before you can begin to consider who may be guilty of committing an offence

Hard to believe, as it normally is fully potted with a silicon rubber compound.
On the other hand, at 400 bar, even solid materials start to show deformation, and the relatively soft rubber may be compressed more than the relatively stiff metal housing, leaving space for water to get in between.

Potting is really best for stabilising components. if there are any materials (wires etc) passing through from the internal to the external there will always be a seam between the potting material and the other. However well made and tested seams are the weak point in any construction.

From Wiki:

Egyptair black box
 

Since the previous thread is apparently closed...

"Black box recordings on crashed EgyptAir flight MS804 confirm smoke on board, Egyptian investigators say"

...was just tweeted by the Beeb

And severe heat damage. Avherald reporting "evidence of fire in the forward section of the aircraft".

Mike:

Thanks for the latest update. Glad more evidence is coming to light.

Here's the verbiage from Aviation Herald:


The thread I started several days ago was simply added to http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...ris-cairo.html, which was then closed again.

I suspect the Mods may do the same with this thread.

Does anybody remember whether the FDR of SR111 kept working to impact? It seems strange that the FDR stopped on this case.

No they did not. Actually they stopped quite a but before the actual cash, almost 30m if memory serves. Which created quite a ruckus back then.

What do find strange in the FDR stopping? No power no recording...

Is that just a roundabout way of saying the FDR recorded the fact that those messages had been transmitted?

If so, we're not actually any wiser than we were before.

From the same official statement:

Regarding the CVR, repairs are still under progress at the French aircraft accident investigation bureau.

This is only reporting the time period that the FDR recording covers. The recording continues "just after the ACARS messages were transmitted", presumably just after the last of the ACARS messages were transmitted.

They are not reporting any FDR content beyond the coverage period.

So for the FDR, we are only the tiniest bit more informed than we were before.

The first sentence is true. The rest is untrue. The recorders stopped working about five minutes before crash and at approximate 9K MSL.

And it is worth noting that this was due to a fire in the cockpit itself.

So what causes are compatible with what we now know? Could this for example be caused by a short in the electrical system--but that a bomb would be too fast acting to have this result?

The presence of thick smoke and soot could suggest no bomb and some kind of serious electrical failure.

Egypt CAA confirms high temperature damage fwd A/C
 

As already predicted, FDR stopped when MS804 was still @ FL370, probably @ same time the transponder quit. Not much hope that CVR will have data after that moment either. The more intriguing though is the official message that front of A/C wreckage reportedly already salvaged is said to show signs of high temperature damage and soot.

http://www.civilaviation.gov.eg/News...s_30_6_16.html

"Cairo, 29 June 2016

Following the successful download of the data of the Flight Data Recorder (FDR) of the doomed A320, decoding and validation of more than 1200 parameter is in progress in order to commence the next phase of reading and analyzing the data.
Preliminary information shows that the entire flight is recorded on the FDR since its take off from charles de gaulle airport until the recording had stopped at an altitude of 37 thousand feet where the accident occured.
Recorded data is showing a consistency with ACARS messages of lavatory smoke and avionics smoke.

Some recovered wreckage parts of the front section of the aircraft showed signs of high temperature damage and soot .

Analysis will be carried out to try to identify the source and reason for those signs.

Regarding the CVR, repairs are still under progress at the French aircraft accident investigation bureau.

Noteworthy; Collection of identified human remains is still ongoing and will continue till full recovery of all the remains at the crash location."

EgyptAir Flight 804 Cockpit Voice Recorder Memory Chips Intact - WSJ July 2, 2016
 

EgyptAir Flight 804 Cockpit Voice Recorder Memory Chips Intact, Wall Street Journal July 2, 2016

EgyptAir Flight 804 Cockpit Recorder Memory Chips Intact - WSJ

Associated Press article, Investigators say voice recording from EgyptAir crash intact::

News from The Associated Press

Official Egyptian Investigation (newspapers dont add much)

Cairo,2 july 2016

Extensive examinations that were carried out at the French aircraft accident Investigation Bureau; on the electronic board components of the Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) of the A320’; showed that none of the memory ships of the electronic board was damaged .

However some other supportive components associated with communication to and from the memory chips had to be removed and replaced with new ones; whereas advanced high technology will be used to extract the recordings of these units .

After the replacement of the CVR board components; tests results were satisfactory as it enabled the reading of the recorders of the CVR memory unit .

The investigation committee members are planning to return back soon to Cairo with the fixed boards to continue reading and analyzing the FDR and CVR at the central department for aircraft accident at the Ministry of Civil Aviation .

It is worth mentioning that collecting human remains continues according to planned standard procedures.

Egyptair 804: CVR indicates a Cockpit Fire
 

A recent news item provides a bit of information from the Egyptair CVR.
It's in French, and partly behind a paywall:
Crash d'Egyptair: un pilote a tenté d'éteindre l'incendie

An English article based on this is here:
EgyptAir pilot tried to put out fire on board plane, black box shows | Africa | News | The Independent

The report only indicates that one of the pilots was fighting a cockpit fire.

The last offical Egyptian update was number (21)

Cairo, 3 July 2016
John Lethbrdge; the vessel contracted by the Egyptian government; had retrieved all the human remains that were mapped at the crash location of the A320. The retrieval process was supervised by Egyptian and French forensic doctors onboard of the vessel. The vessel departed from the crash location to the port of Alexandria to deliver the human remains to the general prosecutors and forensic doctors; in the presence of the technical investigation committee members; then for an immediate transport of the human remains to the forensic department in Cairo to start DNA analysis and to carry out standard procedures taken. As the Egyptian government is persistent to stand in solidarity with the victims’ families; the mission of John Lethbridge was extended as it will return back to the crash location to conduct a new thorough scan of the seabed and to search for any human remains till being fully assured of the absence of any more human remains at the crash location.

Note by A0283: The BEA site has been publishing copies of the Egyptian updates. So no confirmation of the Figaro article from any official side yet.

Well that makes some of the larger pieces fit the puzzle considering we had window heat and lav alarms sent by the Airbus' ACARS. It also explains the rapid descent as indicated by ATC radar tapes.

Here's another article, in French but not behind a paywall. It is also based on the Figaro (paywall) article:
Crash d'Egyptair: un pilote aurait tenté d'éteindre un incendie à bord
There's a piece of this article that I cannot quite catch using Google translate. It seems to be saying something about when the FDR stopped recording. Perhaps someone fluent in French can provide a translation. Is it suggesting that the CVR recorded longer that the FDR? Or is it suggesting that both recorders stopped well before the impact? Or something else?

@.Scott
If I read it correctly it says that the FDR stopped recording 3-4 minutes before the crash.
The article refers to an official communique - but I cannot find that yet on the Egyptian (last post July 3rd) or BEA (last post July 2nd) sites ....
It also says that Le Figaro has had access to the CVR information.
The rest of the information in it (apart from a single pilot fighting a fire) was already published.
The article suggests a lot but delivers no substance.

This?

"Figaro points out that these new elements proved that the fire was not the cause of the abrupt interruption of the first black box's recording. The aircraft would have continued to fly for three to four minutes beyond the cut in the FDR('s recording), before impact."

So yes, I read it as CVR rec. longer than FDR.

'Right now, nature and causes of the fire's origin have not been identified.'

Needs a closer look at the FCOM but FDR gains data from the FDIU, which is supplied by AC2 and is lost in emergency electrical configuration. The CVR, however, remains supplied via the ESS bus.

If they did indeed select emergency elec config (or lost AC2), this would explain the time difference.

@.Scott
If I read it correctly it suggests the fire was not the cause of cutting the FDR recording. Which sounds a bit far fetched at this stage. Would surprise me if you could read that from a CVR.

Going over to emergency power and thereby losing recorders might be a factor. But if there was a fire who could determine that it had stopped. In the SR111 case it took the pilots more than 10 minutes to find out that there was a fire.

Would be interesting to have the CVR information they suggest they have.

Latest requirements for a CVR requires it have a a redundant power supply (RIPS) that will last 15 minutes or so after loss of the normal power supply. Came in after too many sudden loss of all data due to explosive devices.

The Sultan

This raises the question: why does the FDR not have a similar supplemental power provision? (There's probably a rational answer, but I am not arriving at it).

I muss say I have difficulties in imagining an accidental fire situation where the pilots wouldn't have a chance to transmit a mayday and, at the very least, initiate a diversion.
Unless, of course, it was some incendiary device.

If you go back to the first thread on this aircraft loss, a couple of pilots who fly that route shared their experience that there are comms holes (dead spots?) along that route as one switches over from the Greek to the Egyptian controller frequencies.


As MS804 descended -- even if they sent out a Mayday it might be that nobody received it. (If other aircraft were within range one would think another aircraft might have heard and reported such, so it's also possible that task loading on the flight deck was high and radio calls weren't as pressing as all other tasks).

Quiet area
Quiet area 2

About the handover from Greek to Egyptian controllers

Lone

The FDR does not have it because it's data is sourced from widely distributed avionics or sensors. So if they are gone there is nothing to record. On the CVR the RIPS also powers the area mic so at least something may be recorded if that path stays intact. There was an effort to have two dual recorders, one in front and one in back on large airplanes to get something if the fuselage is compromised (TWA 800).

The Sultan

I would not expect to hear from a pilot fighting a cockpit fire - especially one that he ultimately losses. He can only breath through his mask and he may not be able to see beyond that mask. Given the environment, there is no assurance that the pilot was even conscious immediately before the impact.

And if he was, there is nothing the outside world could have done to help him.

Agree completely. My general
"it's also possible that task loading on the flight deck was high and radio calls weren't as pressing as all other tasks"
was less complete than how you said it. :ok:

Starting to make sense
 

So the ACARS messages pretty much ruled out a bomb. But it could have been an incendiary act.

Now it seems there was a fire in the cockpit. Unlikely to be the place for a pax to start a fire...

Looking very much more like a window heater fault that got out of control down below... Leading eventually to loss of avionics. As has been suggested here already.

MS804 follow up: request for a bit more patience
 

I'm happy that the original thread is closed again and the relevant news has been moved and incorporated.

Quite like the latest information bulletin of the Egyptian Civil Aviation authority (5 July, see quote underneath), actually is asking for a bit more patience and for less speculation.

Of course, there is a fine balance between on the one hand the speed of information, given the seriousness of events in the first place for those directly involved and possibly also for the safety of operations of the type in general, and on the other hand the thoroughness of investigation processes, to reach valid and meaningful conclusions.

The Egyptians are obviously ticking as they are in their own way, so, apart from not having explicitly abided by the ICAO rules to have a first interim report after 1 month, they are at least pretty forthcoming on a regular basis when confirmed news can be released. Let's hope it will continue this way.

BR, Dutch BRU

"Cairo, 5 July 2016

The technical investigation committee would like to assert that it is the only official source of all the releases about the A320 accident and is not responsible for any information released by other sources.

The committee has gathered information that need time to be analyzed and matched to reach some very basic conclusions.

During the coming period, the experts will verifying the information downloaded from the Flight Data Recorder and establish time correlation with the records downloaded from the Cabin Voice Recorder.

The committee urges media to be cautious while issuing press releases about the accident and to only rely on official reports issued by the committee itself."

EgyptAir 804 - new parts found ?
 

The latest official update by the investigation
CAIRO - 08 July 2016 (23)
Investigation committee is coordinating to transfer those wreckage pieces that were found by the Israeli coast in order to ensure that those pieces belongs to the accident aircraft.

The mission of the ship John Lethbridge is continuing to survey seabed at accident site to ensure no human remains are left behind.

CAIRO - 09 July 2016
Investigation Progress Report (24) by the Egyptian Aircraft Accident Investigation Committee

In the context of the Egyptian Government's keeness to recover all the human remains at the crash location of the A320; it was decided to extend the work period of John Lethbridge for a second additional period to last on the 18th of July.
John Lethbridge; the vessel contracted by the Egyptian Government; continues to scan the seabed of the Mediterranean to ensure the absence of any other human remains left at the crash location; whereas forensic doctors onboard of the vessel supervise the transfer of the human remains to the department of forensic medicine in Cairo in order to carry out standard procedures taken in this regard.

Note A0283: The John Lethbridge is on location around this time. So will probably return to Alexandria yet again. Turn around the same day and go out for a last week.

Egypt Air Flight 804 Likely Broke Up in Air
 

So the preferred scenario here would be some sort of fire event leading to a loss a control ending up in in flight breakup? If so it might be a hard one to crack...