French ATC Strike
 

French are at it again tomorrow from 04:00z for 24hrs:ugh:

If it is the same as for all the other strikes then retirement age and pensions.

I hear this one is due lower Ts&Cs for new joiners

French ATC manage to strike just about every year as the British holiday season starts; who are they trying to influence?

France is France and the French will defend their social rights to the bitter end....in this respect....they don't give a stuff about anybody else......

Good for them.

Can the wonderful EU bods in Brussels do something that, like the police force in the UK at least, make it illegal to strike? As isn't this the 3rd or 4th one already this year? I appreciate I may touch some nerves with this comment, but for the sake of all in the aviation business, please don't mess us around any more!

Binder, sorry to say, but,

France is France and the French will defend their social rights to the bitter end....in this respect....they don't give a stuff about anybody else......


If we had done some of this stuff, this profession may have been a more worthwhile option for our children/grandchildren


There are bigger things brewing in France, and it won't just be ATC on strike as this Summer progresses.



http://www.euronews.com/2016/03/09/p...rench-workers/

Regulate the market even further? Companies are very quick to demand deregulation in the name of a free market, yet when the workers act according to the concepts of a free market and dictate how much they should be compensated this is somehow just not cricket? It can't be okay to glibly say pay is low because it's a free market and there is a ready supply of employees, yet when there aren't enough qualified employees, those same employees can't sell their services at a higher rate... Either it's a free market or it isn't.

In a truly free market, if you don't show up for work I am allowed to fire you and hire someone else willing to do the job.

It is the fifth strike in the last two months, and the 46th in the last seven years. Bit ridiculous iMHO.

Exactly. I, therefore, would presume these workers possess a skill-set that takes time to retrain coupled with experience. The market will determine if the remuneration they demand is reasonable.

The obduracy of staff isn't the issue. All areas of the industry subsidising what is essentially a derived demand product, is.

Typical reply from a Yank (core dump). Probably never heard of sticking up for your own rights and for future generations. I understand it is over T&Cs for new starters, well worth fighting for especially in ATC. Earnestly waiting for the usual Ryanair rant!

That's their legal reason, but today's action is much more to do with the fact that there's also widespread national protest at the moment about the introduction of a new set of labour laws (the law "El Khomri"):

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/20...-and-the-euro/

The ATC action is timed to tie in with widespread demos today (e.g. our local airport ground access is blockaded as I write, and lorry drivers are blocking access to several fuel oil refineries - we engaged in a bit of panic topping up last night...).

captplaystation:

+1....Mr Valls verses the unions..wouldn't want to be in the middle of that....

Don't know much about this but, I have some measure of agreement in what Journey Man says.

Agree with Journey Man, he makes a very good point.

Ryanair had a petition on their webpage following the last strike where they wanted to regulate and have it illegal for ATC to strike. Yet they're the first one to use the benefits of the free market.

Hard to pick my winner between :
- ATC that keeps striking to a point you wonder when they're not on strike
- Pilots blaming ATC but whinging about their poor conditions and their miserable lifestyle (yet not acting. "You know, this is a hard like, you have to take or leave it. After all this is a competitive market and you knew it beforehand").

Arrh, well I'll go for ATC. I've just had enough of those poor puppies (pilots) crying on their poor fate while finding all excuses available not to take action to the next level for their own good.

I agree in principle with standing up for your rights and if the numbers worked in France they may even have my ear, but the economy is rubbish and France does not work. Enterprise and competition are actively discouraged on so many levels, especially through employees rights. Time and again I see small businesses go to the wall after 3 years (when the tax kicks in) or established business that cannot afford to grow because they can't afford to take someone on because of the high social charges (the healthcare, education and infrastructure are fantastic and that's got to be paid for somehow) or because once you hire somebody they have so many rights and it's so difficult to let them go if you downsize it cripples businesses. I have two friends who've taken a year off, paid rather than lay them off and re-hire. Now that's lovely if you can get it and great to have strong employment protection, but when businesses countrywide are closing or stagnant because of it it defeats the object in a country that's got over 10% unemployment and growing. I can't get behind industrial action for that.

TBH I think that's a bigger problem than workers rights. When the state levies taxes and social charges on a company in advance using an estimation of the profit it might make in the forthcoming tax year it's no wonder small businesses struggle or go under.

(Apologies for thread drift)

The situation this May in France reminds me of the same period in 1968. explosive and I concur with Capt Playstation assessment , this is just the begining.
Having just spend an evening with a young FO of a certain known airline that cannot be named and heard what their company plans for them , i do not like what this ultra liberal Trump-like society wants to achieve both economically and socially in the end. All working for minimal wages 15h a day 6 days a week like in the 1850, (or like in Ethiopia or Erithrea today ) ?

I also do not like to be affected by Strikes of any kind, but this is for the good cause , so I do support them, as they defend my way of life too.

The voice of reason.

Our societies are vulnerable to be exploited, mainly because we thought we can make it right and then sit back and let life pass by.

Never underestimate greed.

Having said that, one thing that makes me really cringe is the apparent incapability of some governments employers and workforces alike to find a compromise that works and works for time longer than one shift in Paris ATC center....

If the french ATC wants to change french labour and social laws, how about penalizing just french tails ? What do they think, we non-french victims of their doings can do to change anything IN France ? Especially considering its being France where any intervention from other countries just produces outcries of "Vive la France, vive la grande Nation", we do as we please etcetc....

We personally can't do anything of course. But, if their actions impact trade and economies in other countries, the theory is that their governments can put pressure on the French government to get their house in order.

At a personal level, this is getting beyond a joke - a fortnight ago I was delayed in UK for 3 days by French ATC strike fortunately I could stay with friends and did not have to fork out for 3 nights in a hotel. In 5 weeks my eldest son is getting married in Spain, he lives in UK. If travel is disrupted then his and his finacee's wedding could be ruined, as no-one from UK would be able to get to Spain. We could actually get there by car!

Yup, so go by car, what's the problem?

Errr, quite possibly this:

France Braces for Potential Halt of Oil Refineries Amid Strike - Bloomberg

I'd refer anyone planning on traveling through or to France in the next month or so to captain playstation's absolutely spot on comment earlier in the thread that: "There are bigger things brewing in France, and it won't just be ATC on strike as this Summer progresses."

TBH whilst this action (ATC and most especially elsewhere) has some public sympathy (workers rights and all that) the bigger issue here is the fight between the major syndicats (unions), such as the CGT, and Mr Valls over who really runs the economy and the country, so this could go on and on this summer....and TBF even the locals, especially those not in unions or working for the public sector, are getting p****d off with their travel plans being interfered with.

I don't mind them going I strike; I just don't see where their employer doesn't have an equal and opposite right to fire them. Who is the Boss here--the employee or employer?

I say that as someone who went on strike (major air carrier) and assumed my action was the functional equivalent of a resignation. I moved on to another chapter, they disappeared.

This is why airlines have closed say their catering department and subcontracted out. The gimme gimme unions have shot themselves in the foot. How can you have the bread buttering department shut down an airline.

galaxy flyer, the problem is that replacing air traffic controllers takes time. Even if you take on licensed controllers from other sources/countries, they have to train and validate on multiple sectors in a completely new environment. That may take up to two years. A type qualified pilot can be hired and fly the line in a much shorter period of time than that.

I´d say your view is very shortsighted. If you live on a continent that tries to get together and has 28 different social and labour laws, the workforce is subject to real problems in terms of competition. The employers on the other hand do have a golden opportunity in exploiting their workforce and the big, big handle of "if you don´t obey I´ll move next door".

Now, one can sit back and let that happen, or not. France has a very good example right at their doorstep: Germany, were the labour and contract laws have been twisted in a way, that we do have a lot of employed people, but employed for wages were they can´t live off, can´t get anything aside for retirement etcetc. which will lead to massive amounts of poor people in a few years. All for the sake of profits of people that don´t get taxed properly or can evade said taxes, the prime example being Amazon that pays 0,9% in Luxembourg, whilst ruining the small shop in the inner cities in all european countries. Said shops pay up to 30% taxes and their employees are usually native people that could live and pay into the pension funds, unemployment insurance etcetc.

It is high time that the european people (and IMO the americans too) put an end to this. But instead some think voting for a billionaire will make things any better for them. The european politicians are a disgusting bunch of lobbyists and hardly disguised speaks persons for large corporations, which are the main winners of our legislative process by not democratically elected persons such as Jean-Claude Juncker & the likes...

We need to go back to system were one cannot easily make more money simply by having money, but were employing people makes one earn it.

What was all the fuss about.

Strike before this one, on time departure to and from Spain, this strike just a 20 min slot departing the UK and on time, no slot departure coming back with an early arrival back home.

I was surprised that Ryanair seemed to cancel everything on 28 April, whereas Sleazy flew Gatwick-Nantes with few problems. usually if French ATC striking our Stansted- La Rochelle flight seems to toddle down the coast and turn left at the Ile de Re. Simples - but not that time - maybe it was part of his campaign to make strikes by controllers illegal - but I suspect he is dreaming there

Then we wonder why t&cs keep dropping year after year...

Be careful with what you wish for. Maybe one day yourself or your kids will be at the receiving end of what you envisage.

HT

Not necessary to fire anyone, but the possibility might be cause some useful timidity. We seemed to recover with some painful ATC conservatism. I flew thru the US strike recovery and it wasn't easy, but doable.

French are at it again on thursday:

Eurocontrol Public Flow portal

I fear this may become a weekly occurrence? How much has all this striking cost airlines across Europe already this year?

speedbird

As mentioned elsewhere on Pprune it as all kicked off here over the last few days and certainly passengers arriving at French airports, especially in the north, picking up a hire car need a bit of a fuel plan. Rumours are that as yet aircraft refuelling won't be effected - at the major airports.

As you say, just a matter of time before flights to France will be round-trip fuel (payload permitting) or a Tech stop to add to the joy


French labour dispute: Strike hits all eight oil refineries - BBC News

Supermarkets in our area (Vendee) allow €30 worth of fuel a visit, up nearer Nantes it was €25 - but it is set by the Prefecture of the Departement - there are reports of petrol stations further north running out

Just heard that plans are made for the ENTIRE aviation community to go on strike in France, on 3-4-5th of June.

Ronald Reagan proved that wrong. He fired 11,000 ATC employees. Within days operation was at 80% and a lifetime ban was imposed on all strikers from being rehired.
Little or no problem since ... unlike France where this almost seems to be a seasonal occurrence and collectively probably al lot worse over the years than the "end it all" in 1981 in the US.

I can understand the frustating feelings of passengers and people who has a link with the french collegues. I admire their tough position against a system (global) that take our rights out of window, if we can't fight and accept everything we will end in :mad:. Look a global economy, it's just crap. Everything is open, global, liberal but nothing get really better, we still have a big poverty in the third world, in EU & USA we have a strong crisis and we still belive (some of us) that we still have to open the market!?!? Are we blind and can't understand that the open market will make happy the richest in the world and make us argue between us and fiight to have a little job, which should be paid less because it's still an open market.... I'm young, I am positive but I see the future not bright and happy, not only for ATC, but in general I can see difficulties for all the stakeholders involved in aviaton, especially airlines.


I support the french ATC, they should try to lower the days of strikes but they have rights which are going to be fight, Ryanair isn't even possible to mention on this, because they take advantage of the good job of ATCO (shortcuts, no delay, ect...) and than they collect sign to force ATCO to dont strike!?! a bit contraddictory... Next time I will ask Ryanair to put more fuel on board so they dont need to ask priority on landing!