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When ground testing a CVR, the area mic will pick up the sound of you moving in the seat, dropping an ink pen, passing gas, etc.
Several thoughts: So they set the timer to 5 min, is this via software or strapping? And in any routine mx do they physically check the time? Assuming set for 5 min, means 5 min is taking it on faith, something we tend to frown on in aviation. Machinery breaks, normally at the most inconvient time. But then again so do humans. I have no doubt that they can tell the difference between an unguarded and guarded toggle switch being flipped. But without FDR data or associated aural warnings, telling which guarded switch is just supposition at this point. I am somewhat leery of releasing information piecemeal that fits a supposition, no matter how likely it is. We all are a small community, no make that family. And while they have made it sound like crazy uncle joe may well have done it on purpose, they haven't proved it to me to the point that I'm willing to make him a mass murderer. So until further data is made available, could we all refrain from making statements that make it seem as absolute fact? |
Lots of people in lots of different jobs have to deal with being videoed. Bankers, workers in shopping centres, airport staff, workers at McDonalds, security staff, staff at bars and clubs, law enforcement officers, public transport, cabs, call centre staff.... Why on earth are pilots anything special? The dual goals of video are to deter crime, and to provide evidence if a crime takes place. Most people support video when they are being protected, and are less supportive when they are being recorded in order to protect others. Then it becomes an insult and an invasion of privacy...... As with many other things in society, it is a two edged sword. Again, why are pilots a special case? Most employees have to be a bit careful about what they say and do in company time on company premises. Its called common sense and diplomacy. If you want to slag off about management, its usually best to do it in your own time away from the office. Its not that difficult. Pilots have historically been a bit of an exception. In a 1:1 conversation well away from management, pilots have argued the right to "privacy" - while on company time, sitting in very expensive company assets, and entrusted with the lives of 100's of the company's customers. Expect this exception to disappear. Just like real time tracking of aircraft post MH370, the customers (you know, the people in the back that ultimately pay your wages and without whom you would not have a job) will increasingly demand video security in the flight deck. The simple truth is that video surveillance would add very little in 99.99% of investigations. Investigators can derive a remarkable amount of information from audio recordings. FD mikes are incredibly sensitive, and all other connected mikes (boom mikes on headsets etc) are usually recorded too on most modern types. And multiple mics allow for an impressive amount of conclusions to be drawn - such as exactly where on the FD sounds are coming from. Different switches, levers, controls all make slightly different noises - these can be examined in great detail and firm conclusions drawn in most cases. To include video recording would require significant modifications - the recorders would need a huge capacity increase, likely needing a redesign, or the installation of an additional recorder. And a cheapo solution like a GoPro would be useless - the recorders are built the way they are, and installed where they are, for a purpose - crashworthiness - and assuring that purpose is NOT cheap. Neither is the re-certification of ALL the aircraft so modified, to ensure that the mod hasn't introduced new problems with the rest of the carefully-designed aircraft systems. In short, it will be a significant cost - for probably very little real benefit - even before we get into privacy issues. A FAR CHEAPER option would be to hire more pilots - to take the pressure off already over-worked and stressed crews. And train them properly. And pay them better. And.... And... And it would have done nothing to prevent what happened on this flight - and likely shed very little additional light on the eventual happenings. |
Anybody looked into the mental condition called "OCD"? That's Obsessive Compulsion Disorder, where the sufferer is under a compulsion to perform senseless acts. We all have it to a certain extent, like having an impulse to shout out something obscene at a church service.
A planeful of pax should never be allowed to be under the complete control of one person. "They're all mine" would occur to the helpless victim of this condition, and there's no way of identifying him or her in the training. It is a given that there should always be more than one person in the cockpit at all times, otherwise more such events will be inevitable. |
Originally Posted by Ares
(Post 8920118)
Terrorism has a very specific definition tied in with political aims, and this (and potentially MH370) ain't it - that has nothing to do with stereotypes, just legal & academic definitions. This is a simple case of mass murder - essentially the same as some fed up kid shooting up his school & committing suicide, or some office worker "going postal". Only in this case the weapon was a stick & the victims were all aboard.
How We All Miss the Point on School Shootings The thesis is that the more accurate definition of 'terrorism' is in the method, not the motive. When you kill a lot of innocent people in an extremely public and brutal way, doing something that will dominate the media for days and weeks, that IS a form of terrorism, whatever the precise motive. As the author of that article pointed out in respect of school shootings and other mass murders, it's about the TV ratings, the publicity, the message, being remembered, becoming a household name; whatever the motivation, personal or political, it's an act of terrorism. That's the correct lens to view this kind of act through. |
For those who think the A-320 door ought to be "somehow modified" as a result of this terrible event, there is always two sides to a story. Here is the other side of the story:
March 28, 2012 By Tina Susman New York — Federal authorities on Wednesday charged a Jet Blue pilot whose midair meltdown on a New York-to-Las Vegas flight forced his co-pilot to lock him out of the cockpit and make an emergency landing while passengers restrained the distraught captain. The pilot, Clayton Osbon, was charged with interfering with a flight crew by the U.S. attorney in Amarillo, Texas, where the plane made its emergency landing, the Associated Press and Amarillo.com reported. A Jet Blue spokeswoman, Sharon Jones, told The Times that Osbon, who lives in Georgia but is based in New York City, had been taken off duty pending an investigation into Tuesday's incident on Flight 191. The airline refused to comment on whether Osbon would continue to receive his salary during the suspension, but Jones said that "he is still employed with Jet Blue." Osbon's rant began when the flight was more than three hours into its journey. Witnesses, several of whom recorded video of the incident, said the pilot became enraged after he was locked out of the cockpit by his co-pilot, who had become worried by the captain's erratic behavior. A passenger on the jet who was an off-duty pilot entered the cockpit and helped land the plane as several passengers used their belts and plastic handcuffs to hold down Osbon. Osbon was taken off the jet in Amarillo and hospitalized. Jet Blue said the FBI was investigating the incident, which it said appeared to be more the result of a medical issue than security-related. "As the events unfolded, it became clear that security was also an element of this episode, but not the overriding issue in our opinion. The FBI has said terrorism is not a factor in this incident," the airline said on its blog, Blue Tales. Jet Blue noted that it was the first airline to install bulletproof cockpit doors, which are "coded and virtually impenetrable. When the flight crew inside the deck close and lock that door, no one can get in." It expressed gratitude to the customers who helped pin down Osbon and said all the passengers on board the jet, which eventually landed in Las Vegas after its unscheduled stop in Amarillo, would be refunded their fares and given a voucher for twice the value of their original tickets. |
Originally Posted by CogSim
(Post 8920211)
Why not have biometric authentication from *both* flight deck crew to change FMS settings at cruise level. It takes less than a second for my iPhone to authenticate fingerprint.
I mean we already have elaborate authentication mechanisms for nuclear launch sequences and such. How hard would it be to implement something simple to thwart the crazies in the cockpit. |
2 options here.
1. Move the cockpit door to include the forward toilet in the Flightdeck. Or have doors to secure the forward galley and have only crew members use the forward toilet. 2. But the 2 crewmembers on Flightdeck at all times is a good policy. My Company has the same policy and we are in the Far East. It was the MH370 loss that stimulated that change for us. Some companies in Europe and now in Asia, have adopted this policy. My thinking is though an ICAO directive or recommendation should be inplace. Then individual states should enforce adoption of such a policy. Even it being already inforce through the FAA. Also Insurance companies should be pushing for this policy aswell. |
A simple crude low bandwidth video of the FD, say 1 frame per second, not 30 or 60 as TV or movies, could aid the sensitive audio feeds and in this case could help vindicate the FO if it showed him slumped over, suffering, etc. We're prolly videoed 100 times driving to work every day, what's one more... No one likes to be videoed, but we all suffer through it daily. Sometimes it helps us, sometimes it convicts us, but it usually doesn't leave us guessing what happened.
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And when it fails and the flight plan takes the aircraft through a line of severe weather??? |
Captain Osbon was ill, not suicidal. He was a respected Check Airman that was working himself to exhaustion. He was locked out of the cockpit by an astute First Officer after he exited unexpectedly.
The charges were eventually dropped, as I recall. Sadly, I heard he's back to normal and hangs out at his local airport with his old flying buddies, but can't get his medical reinstated. On my lanyard, I still wear the laminated American Flag Clayton made and was handing out to JetBlue crewmembers after 9-11. He was a good guy that got quite ill. |
Bizarre to imply hours flown in anyway is responsible for 'losing it', if anything it's the opposite.
I was down route as a fairly junior LH FO, while having a drink with the skip he totally lost it and got furious about an internal political disagreement. He'd been around for decades and seemed to view things as not as good as they used to be and pilots no longer having respect internally. Not saying he didn't have a point but this anger spilled over to his attitude with the rest of the crew, he was very very angry. Now I'm not implying he would go on to commit mass murder but more to make the point that 600 hours or seniority is largely irrelevant as an indication of anger towards the airline or the world in general. |
And, anyone that can keep his record clean can buy his way into a cockpit?
I'll resign before I allow that in my cockpit. I think most pilots would revolt over selling the jumpseat and refuse to fly. Next silly idea... How about this. We start a bulletin board for Professional Pilots to discuss industry topics without non-pilots chiming in. This is not a charette, people. |
The very WORST thing I feel we could do here is rush to the clamour of 'Something MUST be done about this!!!'
Frankly, the best thing to do here is NOTHING - aside from enforcing a '2 persons present' rule already adhered to in many jurisdictions. If we rush to implement 'something', it is likely we will be dealing with unintended consequences somewhere down the line - and we will have solved nothing. Remember, we are (if confirmed) dealing with what is probably the rarest cause of all accidents - only SIX cases have been recorded in the whole history of commercial aviation, and not all were positively confirmed. |
Like everything else, there would be redundancy. Back up sensor, that sort of thing. My point is having something like that would make it virtually impossible for *one* unstable pilot to take control. |
This investigation will likely get very frustrating to follow due to the legal implications and financial exposure for all the principles. In a year or so someone will start posting vids from found sim cards from pax , but I'm cynical enough to think vested interests and maintaining public trust will likely trump many more public statements of fact or theories from officials.
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Oldoberon is a wise one
Originally Posted by oldoberon
(Post 8920097)
loads of poster doing as you have picking on 1 point and giving a example of doubt, you must look at the whole picture.
A) why didn't he answer radio, ah they failed at just the moment the captain left FD B) why didn't he get out of his seat and let the pilot in -ah he was paralysed with fear. C) Finally why did he change altitude setting having just reached ToC, just having a play was he. COME ON look at the whole picture. |
The thesis is that the more accurate definition of 'terrorism' is in the method, not the motive. When you kill a lot of innocent people in an extremely public and brutal way, doing something that will dominate the media for days and weeks, that IS a form of terrorism, whatever the precise motive. As the author of that article pointed out in respect of school shootings and other mass murders, it's about the TV ratings, the publicity, the message, being remembered, becoming a household name; whatever the motivation, personal or political, it's an act of terrorism. That's the correct lens to view this kind of act through. The event itself and the consequences of the event are the key elements of the more recent definitions of terrorism. The underlying motive (religious, political....) may help us to understand, and may possibly aid identification of high risk people in the future. But the underlying motive does not in itself make (or not make) something an act of terrorism. Sometimes the motive is irrational and not aligned with anything coherent. Sometimes there no stated or apparent motive. Sometimes no one ever claims responsibility. That does not mean it is not a terrorist act. |
Solution: Fire all civilian airline pilots and then replace them with military pilots of the respective countries.
I proposed this many years ago for the U.S., except in a slightly different form: fire all the airline pilots in the U.S. and replace them with FAA pilots. That would be the end of crashes and regulatory violations. FAA pilots are more than capable of breaking an aircraft. They do quite frequently. :E Look the upshot is if you don't trust the driver, don't get on the bus. Simple as that. |
Basil & Ollie Onion,
Even in this day and age with quick-donning oxygen masks etc there are still plenty of places around the world where it is compulsory for a pilot to wear an oxygen mask if left alone on the flight deck. Japan is one country that springs to mind, where > 25000' a pilot left on his lonesome has to wear one and > 41000' at least one pilot must be on oxygen, no matter how many other pilots are present. These rules, I believe, are based on the US FARs but maybe the USA has moved away from such practises. I am not suggesting this was the case here and I am not suggesting any relevance but I just want to ensure that just because you've never heard of it or never done it doesn't mean the practise does not exist........no matter how daft. Arkmark, Before you pontificate and try to advance an obvious vendetta of yours to rid the world of 'cadets' (an action that seems common in Australia) and rant about the qualifications of the Captain, you might want to check your facts and realise the skipper had > 10000 hrs total and > 6000 hrs on the Airbus. He previously flew for Lufthansa (they're a rather large and well-respected airline in Europe, which is north of Darwin) and, whereas I'm sure he couldn't claim to have done the 'hard yards' :roll eyes: in the Outback mustering cattle, I think his qualifications and experience more than fulfil even the requirements of Australia....the heart of aviation and great practises. |
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