I have to applaud LH and Germanwings for their very sensitive handling of the relatives. I read only positive reports about their approach to all of this. Compare this to Malaysia's handling or AF they are doing a really good job. Same is true for the locals in France, who are standing up to the difficult task brought upon them. They do a good job. Because they were professionally prepared to stage a perfect media handling. |
I find it disturbing and scary how everybody jumps/jumped at the mental illness narrative regarding the FO, only to find out now that the Düsseldorf hospital stated that he was not there for mental illness on March 10th, when he got the last sick note apparently.
You know what: This observation tells more about us, and perhaps aviation industry, than about the suspect. Get some self-reflection in there, lads. |
As an ex pilot who has unfortunately suffered depression and anxiety, I have first hand experience of how the system works. A few years ago, I offloaded myself from a flight and after consultation with my company, I saw my AME, then my GP. I was very quickly diagnosed with depression and Anxiety. I thought my career was over, that's it, I will never fly again. Nothing was further from the truth. I had exceptional support from my company, the CAA, my AME and GP. Never once was anything said about never flying again. unfortunatly, I could not recover from my anxiety and I took the very hard decision to leave flying. I do get upset with fellow professionals saying that pilots should NOT be allowed to return to flying following an episode of mental illness. It's thinking like this that scares and subsequently stops pilots from coming forward in the first place. The fear of loosing their Medicals for good is a horrible one. The CAA actually prefer that you come forward, get the help, get recertified and continue your career. I do believe that the First Officer should NOT have been flying, but it was the fear of loosing his job that probably stopped him coming forward. mental illness is here to stay, and the stigma surrounding it NEEDS to stop. Pilots have a very stressful, important, and highly responsible job, but at the end of the day, we are only human.
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For all that suggest having a CC member on the Flt Deck is nonsense or otherwise unnecessary - would you have thought the same had you been the Captain on this flight? Does that matter?
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num1 and engineer
Well said num1
Engineer you are still mono dimensional A psychosis is, if that is what it is, not something he could have done anything with at that time, the only thing he could have done was hours, days, or even months before: stop flying, that would be his guilt. |
However I stand by my view that once removed and clearly diagnosed there surely must be no route back to flying. However how do you draw a line in between light and medium reactive depression. Or psychiatric injuries like PTSD which have a very wide spectrum. |
Keepitflying! Thank you for your very honest post and I am sad for you on how your situation turned out. However, your own admission rather proves the fundamental point that these conditions rarely depart the afflicted completely.
In your case your rational reasoned processes led you to make an important very sensible life decision. Imagine though if instead of depression and anxiety the condition is tinged with suicidal or manically destructive thoughts. When will they ever go away. How can such an individual ever return to safe flight duty. I applaud your post and wish you well for the future whatever that may bring. |
Ratanplane. I cannot draw any lines in the spectrum of mental illness as I am not qualified to do so BUT I have tried to draw a distinct line between normal life stressors, that we will all face, especially death of a parent, from the cases of mental illness. Ihave no answers but Irather suspect there are none other than remove clinically diagnosed mental illness from the cockpit and cabin.
The Aviation Medical community need to consider a better system of identifying such cases. In the UK a remarkably simple start would be to automatically grant AME access to pilots GP medical records! |
Originally Posted by mercurydancer
SSRIs do not cause suicidal ideation except in one notorious drug which is no longer available.
Here's link one of many, which manages to namecheck three such drugs in the first sentence: Antidepressants & Suicide It might concern you to know that there are so many people in the UK on these drugs (the other two people currently in the family living room in which I'm typing this are both on one of those named) that there was actually a national shortage at one point last year. |
Hello. I am not in aviation business so this will be my only post unless I get a legitimate reason to reply.
I have dealt with depression for most of my life. Psychiatrists, antidepressants in the past, etc. I have learnt to live with it and I just accepted it that I might have some down times. I have never been suicidal, neither I ever had a wish to harm another. I believe depression is sometimes misunderstood and it doesn't automatically make you unreasonable. However when a major event happened I needed some time off, to regroup it was overwhelming. At that time I would definitely be of no help to my company. I work in restaurant business, I am a chef. My work is nowhere as hazardous as being a pilot and I have no intention to compare it. I only want to make a reference to human nature. We do get hectic times when work demand goes over your head and you have to know how to keep your calm. When that happens I am usually a top performer and hardly ever loose my nerve. At the same time I observe my "sane" coworkers loosing it completely. Many times I wondered why. It might only be that I am more aware becouse of all the terapies and other people act unconciously and are emotionaly unprepared for the situations. I don't know.. I believe we all have our boiling point wich a certain amount of stressors can trigger. I have absolutelly no idea how a pilot training works, but maybe having a mandatory psychological class and mental training and observation by specialist until you reach a certain amount of experience could be a solution. By that time you should have enough experience to act confidently in the pilot seat, understand yourself and ofcourse being screened, for hazardeus behavior. Scool should mybe be free of charge for those who do not pass. |
As an ex pilot who has unfortunately suffered depression and anxiety, I have first hand experience of how the system works. A few years ago, I offloaded myself from a flight and after consultation with my company, I saw my AME, then my GP. I was very quickly diagnosed with depression and Anxiety. I thought my career was over, that's it, I will never fly again. Nothing was further from the truth. I had exceptional support from my company, the CAA, my AME and GP. Never once was anything said about never flying again. unfortunatly, I could not recover from my anxiety and I took the very hard decision to leave flying. I do get upset with fellow professionals saying that pilots should NOT be allowed to return to flying following an episode of mental illness. It's thinking like this that scares and subsequently stops pilots from coming forward in the first place. The fear of loosing their Medicals for good is a horrible one. The CAA actually prefer that you come forward, get the help, get recertified and continue your career. I do believe that the First Officer should NOT have been flying, but it was the fear of loosing his job that probably stopped him coming forward. mental illness is here to stay, and the stigma surrounding it NEEDS to stop. Pilots have a very stressful, important, and highly responsible job, but at the end of the day, we are only human. Much as I would like to know, I'll resist asking which company it was. The sad reality of this kind of enlightened approach is that it is hard to convince a fearful public that this is the way to prevent problems rather than cause them. |
@ rantanplane
His actions seem very narcistic. He did not care about others at all. He choose the best opportunity to take as much people with him as he possibly ever could. |
But Robert Brown was convicted of manslaughter for insanity...the judge gave him max sentence of 27 years, he appealed, yet was sane to fly? He had planned to down the jet next! Not one bit of sincere remource shown to this day
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From an article on WSJ-online (Wall Street Journal):
The person familiar with the case said Mr. Lubitz was undergoing treatment for depression elsewhere in the Rhineland area of western Germany. Under German law, a doctor isn't required to inform the patient’s employer about any illness, nor should the note excusing him or her from work include any information about the patient’s condition. Hans-Peter Hartung, the head of University Hospital’s department of neurology, said that while doctors in Germany weren't required by law to inform the police or a patient’s employer if the condition seemed like it could pose risks for others, they had discretion to do so. “We are entitled under the balance of risks, and if there are looming problems, to breach medical confidentiality” by contacting the police or a patient’s employer, Mr. Hartung said. Jochen Lamp, spokesman for the German association of psychiatrists, said only very unusual circumstances would prompt a psychiatrist to breach medical confidentiality as legal consequences of such a move can be severe. |
opportunity knocked in the call of nature
Maybe it was when the captain went to the loo he had the chance... if it had been over a town at the time then that would have been the impact.
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Double Bogey, thank you for your kind words. Yes, I do agree that maybe the illness may not ever go away? It depends how bad and for how long the illness has been present. Some anxieties and depressions are indeed temporary. I was just trying to convey my personal experience of the 'system' as a resounding positive one. What I thought in my mind about my career prospects initially were not founded. I had so much support from so many different sources. It was just In my case that the situation was worse than first thought. Very tragic situation for the families, passengers and crew of this flight.
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he sudden mood change, the short answers, the becoming quiet and turning inward, just what I could see many years ago. Double Bogey, I know many professional pilots from a private background , they tell me what they don't tell at work and there are some which have been treated for mental ahem let's say some medical issues, they took time off for other let's say reasons, and came back healthy and they are much better than before. Wouldn't it be better to avoid fear about the termination of one's career which might be one of the underlying issues here. |
If crews are reluctant to have cameras, why not a c heap and easy interim measure that would help with one other modification.
Put an inward looking spy hole in the door, so CC etc can see all is well. I realise this doesn't help in this accident, so the other mod is a cabin mic that can be turned on and record to a separate track on cvr with any serious comments/concerns. Under normal circumstances the items should be raised in a post flight report, if not they are deemed irrelevant, however in circumstances like this they could be valuable evidence. |
For all that suggest having a CC member on the Flt Deck is nonsense or otherwise unnecessary - would you have thought the same had you been the Captain on this flight? Does that matter? Others have quoted 9/11, other suicides / scenarios and the risks this policy brings in. It's not even certain the policy would have stopped this, just altered the exact modus operandi. |
f so, strange that he allegedly flew the plane into a sparsely populated mountain rather than into one of the many huge towns in southern France. There was a very sad picture of a very pretty young mum carrying her 4-5 month old baby in her arms back en route to her husband. They have both been torn from his life by the actions of this Lunatic evil person. So many people here are defending him his state of mind almost as they feel sorry for this monster. No one discusses the mental state of the father and husband of that girl and child. How does he feel today with his whole future gone because of this guy! Frankly I wish he had waited till they landed and thrown himself under a train if he was so depressed. How considerate of him that he chose a stark mountain side rather than picking somewhere like Nice and stuffing it into the City he could have taken out another 150 people in the process maybe we should give him an award ?? Apparently his last flight was into Heathrow on the westerly runway! how considerate he was not to choose that flight and put it into central London Some of the postings here are quite sickening! why not discuss the mental state of the father and husband of that wife and child he murdered? Not one word have i seen written about the mental state of this monsters victims only defence and understanding of a monster |
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