Northwest 705 in Florida is one that comes to mind

(though a bit different to the accident near Mt Fuji as pilot control inputs thought to have played a role in the NW accident)


As more details of this accident emerge the chain of events in the NW 705 accident may be quite relevant.

Literally zero

Slats11Sorry, cannot agree...remember LAM Embraer190?

"for all the loss of comms/no comms conspiracy crowd I can assure you that if indeed this aircraft hit severe/extreme turbulence it is almost impossible to use the radios"


Not disagreeing with your general point but some headsets used to have a PTT switch in the headset lead - if you were a 2nd officer watching the other 2 pilots wrestle with a frighteningly vibrating aircraft you can hit that PTT and get your distress call off. (That was how, back in the 70s, I received a distress call citing extreme turbulence). Modern aircraft with a crew of 2 pilots only are far more likely to stay silent.

Well from experience last 30 years if in severe turbulence and trying to dial in the freq on HF or any radio is challenging.
Ones that have seen this can relate.
Eyes and slams cant match, difficult to do.

Quite extraordinary to wake up to find this plane has not been found even though there has been several hours of daylight in the area.

Disclaimer : rare visitor to this forum but like many others got caught up in the evolving MH370 mystery.

There are many on here (I guess) who are sailors and it is hard for us to understand how a plane can dissappear given the low cost of position reporting equipment these days. I can fully understand the huge costs of retrofitting any equipment to an aircraft with type approval certification etc but how about this for a cheap simple idea to be incorporated into new builds.

Just a simple tube containing a pressure activated transponder with epirb mounted internally near the tail. Maybe 30cm long and 10cm dia. On take off this would be set to auto. On a normal descent it would be deactivated at say 1000m but in a distress situation the pressure sensitive sensor would release a mechanical spring at say 250m which ejects the epirb. The whole thing could cost less than USD10k and have no hazardous potential for the aircraft (apart from the batteries in the epirb).

Apologies to all you guys on here for posting such a Heath Robinson idea but joe public just cannot understand how another plane can go missing in 2014.

"Unacceptable... With so many flights going over water. Please don't say they are not designed to be picked up in 150' of water. "


OK, I won't say it.


I think the point is that there could be a floating beacon in the fin that is released by a hydraulic pistol at (say 10m) depth. AFAIK, no aircraft are fitted with this. I can think of best part of $200 million that could have been saved by a general fitment.

"Apologies to all you guys on here for posting such a Heath Robinson idea but joe public just cannot understand how another plane can go missing in
2014.


Pretty close to what I posted at the same time but I'm not going to apologise. It's not new, the idea of crash locator beacons with several independent automatic deployment methods (hydrostatic pressure, g-sensor, heat etc. has been around for years.

I seem to recall a Captain and 2 x FO's took a very serviceable Airbus from FL380 into the sea after entering TZ turbulence - without transmitting a word to anyone outside the aircraft.
These three "experienced" pilots struggled to understand what was happening to the aircraft, despite thousands of hours of flight time. To me, this AirAsia crash has very similar hallmarks.
There's a subtle difference between "Total Flight Time" and "Experience". The latter involves getting into scrapes, and getting out, with your arse and aircraft intact because you understood, or learnt quickly, what to do.
One must always keep in mind that modern commercial aircraft aren't ripped apart by thunderstorms - they are capable of surviving some major abuse - and that over 90% of air crashes can be sheeted home to pure pilot error.

"if in severe turbulence and trying to dial in the freq on HF or any radio is challenging."


You shouldn't have to change frequency on a mayday call - you get instant priority on any channel.

Exactly guys...

Some of us are pilots and boaters... I just went over 2000 miles on my vessel with Epirb equipment that was relatively inexpensive and could pin-point my location anywhere in the world. While I'm not trying to compare the two exactly, I think you get my point.

I know the equip. they put on commercial aircraft are designed to withstand catastrophic accidents. So, the question remains why they seem to be saying they are looking for a needle in a haystack. If they are, changes need to be made....

Archie Trammel
 

Airbubba mentioned some earlier PPRuNe discussion on WX radar training, and that contains a link to another PPRUNE discussion where Archie Trammell, who is considered a bit of a guru when it comes to WX radar, has written an article in a 1987 issue of Business and Commercial Aviation.

For ease of reference (and to enable printing it off or for easy storage), that article is here: Weather Radar (Archie Trammell)

Onetrack

All true what you state of course.

However the mind set in that part of the world, getting into a scrape could be classed as having an incident. Now past incidents make you unemployable. I certainly would never have ruled out a person who has made a mistake in their past and learn't from it. It is the people that don't make the odd mistake, that worry the hell out of me.

This is when the culture of fear and retribution influences people not to open up so we all learn from it. Instead it makes people clam up, if they think they can get away with it and hoping to keep their jobs. A huge safety issue right there. As "confidential reporting" is not confidential and will never be.

PORTVALE Turns out does not relate to 320-200.

Port Vale. You correct, this it is the latest from Airbus. Refers to a new OEB issued world wide A319/20/21 and A330/A340. My airline issued it in early December 2014. This is a new directive unrelated to the AOA and Pitot replacements post AF447 in 2009/2010. Lets hope we find out what actually happened, before coming to conclusions and hope the search ends soon for the wreckage. God bless the families.

Well, back in the 1980s a Dutch F-28 flew into a tornado, causing it's right wing to detach. :sad: All aboard perished.

But we usually talk about accident chains. Plane flies into severe weather, and in the process of recovery something terribly goes wrong.

The AA587 crash at Belle Harbor is an example. The A300 flew into wake turbulence (could have been any turbulence) and the FO's aggressive use of rudder caused structural failure and separation of the stabilizer.

In 2008, an Air Canada A319 enroute to Toronto almost suffered the exact same fate, after exceeding vertical stabilizer g-limits. Thankfully it was able to make an emergency landing in Calgary.

Several turboprops, including a couple Twin Otters and a USAF HC-130, have been lost over the years after in flight breakup in turbulence.

Perhaps most famously (aside from the Mt. Fuji incident): during the cold war a B-52 carrying two nuclear bombs also lost its rudder during flight in severe turbulence. The crew had to bail out and the bomber crashed into Savage Mountain in Maryland.

The two nuclear bombs were thankfully recovered intact.

The search areas this morning are being divided up in to 7 sectors.

http://cdn.metrotvnews.com/dynamic/c...5ir4.jpg?w=668

Source

This video says the search aircraft involved are:

2 C-130s from TNI-AU (Indonesian Airforce)
1 737 from TNI-AU
1 C-130 from Malaysia
1 C-130 from Singapore

add 1x AP-3C Orion from Australia

AirAsia QZ8501: Australia joins search for missing AirAsia flight

NAS 532 "Built" (Assembled) by IPTN in Bandung. Old aircraft now but far better than the NBO 105s of BASARNAS

Just a comment .....
 

I am not a conspiracy theorist. But I do know a bit about the search area.

It may not be as busy as Hong Kong harbour, but I do find it odd that at early morning, during daylight hours, that no one saw this aircraft in it's final moments.
I know that weather would have caused conditions of limited visibility and it's a big ocean.
And even if seen then, crew on small surface vessels may not have any capability to report until they return to shore.
But it is usually pretty busy with all types of surface activity in that region.

Of course we must just wait and see. But I do find it a bit strange.

A320 Max Rec alt FL39800'


-low cost carrier checks in 162 soles at Asian weights of 73kg (circa), but more like 100kg each... (after all its Christmas)


-2Hr flight with alternate, maybe distant due SIN Wx.


-Bit of extra fuel added.


-On this day and early in the flight, Max Rec probably about FL385.(but possibly lower)


.... so heavy


-ISA +


-Request for climb FL380 (according to media reports)


-ITCZ activity (normal for this region)


-Probably a couple more slices of Reason cheese.. (late finish, early start,
probes iced up ..or some other factor that we are yet to find out about)


-Some speed brake (Airbus people will understand) use, then ..VLS ... V@prot.. AP disco ..Vmax ...thrust lock... etc


Equals = Classic jet upset probably with incorrect recovery technique.


(A320 does not like going high, near Max Rec)

There are similarities with the weather case of flight AF447 and QZ8501 but she continued to send HF ACARS engineering data telegrams including cockpit warning codes which were released to the press shortly after her disappearance. It will be interesting to see how this airline inter reacts with the press who will undoubtedly pile huge pressure to release information which could mislead and give false hope to those loved ones in already in despair as we saw in the aftermath of MH370.

Was there any confirmation that the plane was followed by the primary radar?

Just a comment...
 

Hey WingNut60, considering you live in Balikpapan and "know a bit about the area" I am surprised you don't take account of tropical rainstorms. Here in the middle of Singapore we have been seeing near daily rainstorms for the last week or two where you can't see more than thirty or forty feet in front of your face. So it wouldn't surprise me at all if no-one at sea level saw anything.

This is not only interesting, but essential, but only if the lower part of that EAD is mentioned:

Although it's early, most contributors would speculate (it's a rumour forum) in some sort of upset scenario in conjunction with CB or icing. So now the multi million question is:

- Were the pilots aware of and trained in this emergency directive?

Another question to ask yourself: Re-read the directive carefully and ask yourself if you would step into your car, if a similar chilling warning about its driving characteristics would be issued.
I guess not! You would rather leave it in the garage and sue the manufacturer.

It begs the question how any public transport machine gets the absolution by the regulators with such emergency directives, especially in regions perfectly prone to such weather phenomena.

That's why I did put severe/extreme:ugh: You stick to ATCing and I'll stick to flying big airliners... As I said -during MY encounters with severe we were not able to transmit during the event; only after the turbulence had lessened!

Some new details from AirNav Indonesia:

06:12

- QZ8501 requests left deviation from airway. Deviation approved.
- Pilot then requests climb from FL320 to FL380
- ATC asks pilot to standby, due to nearby traffic and to coordinate with next sector (Singapore)

06:14

- ATC calls QZ8501 to approve partial climb to FL340
- No response received after 2 or 3 further attempts to contact
- ATC requests help from nearby aircraft to contact QZ8501

06:16

- ATC still cannot reach QZ8501
- Aircraft still observed on radar screen

06:17

- Radar contact lost
- Last reported altitude: FL290

Pilots also have the option of doing the same thing with the ELT. There is a red guarded switch in the cockpit for manual activation. However, it wouldn't be difficult to imagine reasons why the pilots wouldn't have had the presence of mind to activate it (if it was part of their procedures) with the buffeting/g-forces, possible decompression, loss of power, wiring damage, manuals (& hot beverages) flying around the cockpit, etc.

Where is the battery for your boat's VHF? Where is the antenna? What happens if the boat overturns or breaks up before you have the chance to push the red button? On a boat, do you put on your life jacket before or after pushing the red button? Sometimes immediate self-preservation takes priority over long term preservation.

something missing,
Is the area covered by SSR and ADSB?
seems -yes.
If aircraft stalled ,Transponder would work.
There is no info ( other the last post that anyone noticed descent )
If it is SSR covered and aircraft stalled than ATC will see aircraft fall ( albeit I pray to Good to save us of such views ) all the time ,or at least until radar coverage lower limit. Lower limit could be anything but it should be at least FL 100.
So If it was stall, ATC would see FL 330,FL327..... FL100....

If it is desintegration ,intentional turn off comms and transponder than it might happen FL 330,FL327 and than nothing without any frequency warning or similar.

i think that the same is applicable for flightradar and other modern applications ...
:confused:

Just a comment
 

Yes, it's a bit damp here too.


But please read it again.
I did mention regarding the weather and associated difficulties.
Most probable cause of no reports would be because the weather is keeping the ketintings (teng-tengs over your way, I believe) on the beach.


Just because the tops are going through 50,000 ft does not mean that there is anything coming out the bottom.


And there is so much traffic through that area that I am still surprised at lack of reports.
North-South traffic through the Sunda Straits and East-West traffic from Singapore to Kalimantan, etc.

Thanks for sharing this, I remember Archie saying to always look for ground return on the other side of a cell to make sure more weather was not hidden by attenuation. The Southern Air 242 crash had occurred a few years earlier.

And it's not just 'Asian' crews. Some of the folks I fly with still think it is an entitlement to play video games and watch movies on their tablets while at the controls. After NW 188 overflew MSP five years ago and the feds pulled the pilots' tickets some of this stuff died down but now it's getting worse, not better in my observation. The hotwire plug to somehow play the movie sound over the ground interphone channel has resurfaced.

I did a no kidding low vis takeoff in a widebody recently, crosswind, about a light and a half visible on the centerline, sanded ice on the runway. As we start to roll, my coworker in the other seat whips out his iPhone to video the event. I started to say something but it was a long trip ahead and some of these folks act like you've taken away their birthday if you mildly imply that the captain is in command. I guess it's a generational culture thing.

Anyway, I could sure see a scenario where the pilots are distracted by portable electronic devices and realize late in the video game that they need to avoid severe weather.

There was a 747 that went down after lightning struck its wing and the wing failed in 1976, although it was after cruise altitude.

Not applicable to the A320-200

ADs issued
 

Just for the record airbus have issued three ADs related to replacement of conical plates and sensor as well as ammended test procedures. 2014-0266E being issued to ammend the AFM to cover an inflight upset and what to do.
There is now another AD thats related to flight information collection, that being replacement of pitot probes 2014-0237.

But in this instance of this sad event I would still doubt that any of these could have been responsible for this. Just have to await the out come from the investigation. But my splerb above is for the press to read so they have another angle and story to spout on CNN.

Come on CNN do your best to rag this one out

BBC has reported that the aircraft never climbed to FL380 because ATC didn't give the clearence due to traffic..so I can suppose that they were in the "****" already and remained there a couple of minutes too much without the chance to climb immediately...:sad:...

Sydney radio 2GB has just reported that an Aust aircraft in the search area has reported sighting "objects" floating in the search area....

Aust has a P - 3C on task.

More to follow I would imagine....

Channel 7 news reporting the same

interesting tech in that Orion
Missing AirAsia plane: the RAAF Orion plane hunting for jet

Do not want to denigrate in any way the search assets of any country but the Aussies do seem to be very effective when it comes to SAR. (Assuming this breaking news is true).

Edit: Sadly there will probably not be any AR in this case.

The ADF is refusing to comment on the claim by an Indo official that the Australian P3 Orion has spotted wreckage this afternoon (Indo time). So, the claim is just as likely to be grandstanding by the official.