|
Here's an interview with the chief of the KNKT (NTSC) after downloading data from the FDR. He's not revealing too much at this stage which is understandable. It's interesting that he has aircraft models of recent aircraft fatal accidents behind him in his office (Sukoi SJ 100 and Merpati's MA60).
|
FDR and CVR status - till end of January 16th
As far as I know:
There is an unofficial piece of tape - claimed to be from 8501 - containing pre-takeoff comms with the control tower in Surabaya. I ve been listening to that and the quality is not that good. Tried to make a transcript ( because I could not find one ), but hard to confirm what has been claimed, based on that. Could just have been another flight. Both recorders have been delivered to KNKT/NTSC HQ and Lab in Jakarta. The FDR on Jan.12th, and CVR on the night of Jan. 13th or in the early morning thereafter. First reported results: "Safety committee-head Tatang Kurniadi said that 174 hrs of data had been downloaded from the FDR, and 2 hrs and 4 min from the CVR. The data must be converted into a usable format before the lengthy analysis process can begin.- AFP". Timeframes for download and first analysis given during the last few weeks by KNKT ran from 2 days to 2 weeks. It depends on the quality of what is retrieved. The recorders looked good, so most expect a quick retrieval. But you never know. A prelim report is often set at 1 month after the accident. But with this open water search and the relatively later finds, it would not suprise me if they would set that at 1 month after the FDR find. So somewhere mid February. All parties involved will want to make sure that what will be reported does not have to be retracted later. Saves us all from all kinds of conspiracy theories. Expect the worst, but (we all) hope for the best. |
Quick and dirty transcript of the interview with the head of the KNKT
@ training wheels video
CCTV INTERVIEW WITH HEAD OF KNKT/NTSC [ a quick and dirty transcript by A0283,which means it is not meant to be 100% correct, my additions are put between [ ] ... [ Also, the Q's start the questions by the journalist, the A's start the answers by the Head of the NTSC ] [And, I left the english as it was spoken] Q ...[illegible]...[Tatang?].. Q thank you so much for your time, You must be very busy, Q how is your investigation going, were are you right now, I think from the [find] of the flightrecorders... Information has been download, About 1200 parameters... and then frame hours download for 174 hrs... Then from CVR... we download the length of 2hr and 4min...of the information [from] the CVR. Q and did you find any red flags....like anything that caused for an alarm, that immediately stands out, A ... there are around, just little more... when the accident happened to the aircraft, A but the content is undisclose methodology...cannot be published, Q so, to know cause of this crash, do you need all the wreckages, or is it... A NO, Q enough for the black boxes, A [but] it is very good to lift it, makea mock up, and then to show it to the public, as lessons learned, Q ...you will leave in your hands... you have the key to the cause of the crash, A we have the key, Q is it weather, is it because of the clouds,the weather, A I cannot say like that, [clouds] that is only one aspect, [just] one factor, ...accident always happen because of too many factors ... clouds, Q so we can you already found other factors, A yes... also [found] other factors,[confirms and nods], Q the Indonesian safety record is not very good, compared to other countries, what are some of the most pressing concern[s] that you have, as head of the NTSB [NTSC], A I think our improvement started in2007, our rate of accident [was] dramatically reduced, from [then] 4.12 to 1.53[per ... ] in 2013, .. [dropped], assisted by the rate increase operational [flying]hrs... A rate of A to maintain [improve] our safetyculture, ... and then to enforce safety recommendations,...operators and also the regulators, Q there is a lot of international attention on this crash, because of the two major crash that happened during[in] 2014, MH370 and MH17, Q a lot of talks been going on, that [there] should be a better way for the black boxes to be found, for finding the black boxes ... to be found, Q that this is something crucial for the aerospace industry A sometimes we find difficulty to find the black box, where are they, especially when they happen at sea, and costly to find, A I think in the future ... it should be new technology to transfer the FDR and CVR.. [data/information] to another system, END OF INTERVIEW |
Originally Posted by Volume
Large aeroplanes are not intended to be stalled, hence there is no procedure required to recover from a fully developed stall.
|
Originally Posted by training wheels
He's not revealing too much at this stage which is understandable.
Which is not specially surprising. They've heard recordings from the deck, they got radar data, they got large part of the wreck and (probably) autopsies. And I suppose the moment when his knowledge will see the light of the day will be earlier then the publication of the preliminary report. Officially or not. |
Memory Module Cylinders?????
RE AO283's post
"Memory module cylinders" on the CVR , FDR boxes? I always thought those were the "pingers" and that all data was contained within the CVR FDR boxes themselves. |
cylinders on cylinders
Originally Posted by albatross
I always thought those were the "pingers" and that all data was contained within the CVR FDR boxes themselves.
Different brand, but with reference to this picture: https://commerce.honeywell.com/wcsst...light_rcdr.jpg The small shiny cylinders are the pingers, which are attached to bigger red cylinders which contain the actual data memory--and some appreciable shock mounting and armoring. The main electronics are in the L-shaped rectangular boxes, which don't actually need to survive, as they are finished with their function by the time serious disruptive forces arrive. Disclosure: I'm not a pilot. I am an electrical engineer, with a few degrees from MIT. |
actual CVR blackbox from QZ8501
http://i.imgur.com/OBmj6wt.jpg AirAsia flight QZ8501: Recovery crews suspect they have found crashed jet?s cockpit, engine |
Originally Posted by BG47
(Post 8828440)
Some of these officials, who were involved in the disputes, remember how tension between the two camps initially erupted. In the wake of the SilkAir flight that went down in a muddy Indonesian river delta in 1997, killing all 104 people on board, U.S. and Indonesian experts joined forces to dissect causes of the tragedy. But they had a falling out over the findings of the final report. In the end, Indonesian experts concluded there was no way to conclusively determine why certain flight-control panels on the tail were put into a dive configuration, or why both flight-data and cockpit-voice recorders stopped operating before the fatal dive. NTSB experts, however, felt the physical evidence and other data pointed to pilot suicide. By 2000, the NTSB’s chairman publicly indicated that no airplane-related failures could explain what occurred, and the only plausible explanation was intentional pilot action.
|
There are reports coming through now that BASARNAS has now located the cockpit about 500 metres from the main fuselage. The pic below is just an artist graphic, but the news report is here.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B7h8itYCIAAk_b-.jpg |
p.j.m (and others freaking out about Indonesia's capacity to respond)
It's concerning if the Indonesian authorities have control of the recovered data, and they have a history of denying an issue if it is something they feel embarrassed about (like a suicide). Interestingly when the NTSB gave early briefings on information during the Aseana investigation they were criticised on this forum for too much too soon. So far the Indonesians have found the wreckage, located and recovered the FDR and CVR in very challenging and risky conditions, have recovered bodies with dignity and respect, are recovering the fuselage, and are providing clear updates on the state of the recovery and investigation. It's an error to use isolated past experiences as predictors of present and future events. While the families of 9/11 victims still demand to see the redacted 28 pages, and Australia now has a range of new laws which substantially inhibit transparency, I'd say don't throw too many stones. |
these planes are sort of constructed in three big pieces...the front part, the middle part and the tail part
so, it seems we have found the big parts and they sort of break up that way. |
bud leon is correct - and the Indonesian divers merit special acknowledgment for their outstanding recovery efforts in conditions that are dangerous in the extreme.
Western divers would be looking for bravery awards under the conditions that the Indonesian divers are working in. These divers have not only been battling strong and reversing currents - they have been travelling out to the wreckage sites in 2M to 4M waves and enduring violent seasickness as well. They have been diving to extreme depths, at their diving limit. Then they have had to deal with low levels of visibility, as well as the potential finding of human remains staring back at them. It's not a job I'd volunteer for. They have not had the luxury of ROV's or mini-subs or other exotic equipment, as many Western nations would produce and use. They have done an admirable job of finding the wreckage and recovering some of it, in surface weather that has been less than favourable, more often than it has been favourable. Cut the Indonesians some slack, I'm sure they are just as interested in improving their SAR skills, and finding the real reasons behind the crash, as any of us are. The fact that a few of the middle-management Indonesians got a little excited and made pronouncements that were guesses, more than actual knowledge, is no reason to write off the whole exercise as one of total incompetence. |
@ albatross on ‘cylinders’, naming conventions and configuration management
The actual recorders ... have vertically mounted memory-module cylinders ... Note - on quite a few recorders these two black brackets are connected directly to the memory module cylinders. Both actual 8501 recorders have a kind of ‘rather fat’ intermediate orange brackets on which these black brackets are mounted. There is one ‘pinger’ each on the FDR and the CVR. ‘Pingers’ are better called Underwater Locator Beacon’s (ULB's), But in this case labelled “EMERGENCY LOCATING BEACON” by the manufacturer on the one mounted on the actual CVR. Not smart from the manufacturer to label it like this, as the ELB acronym might easily be confused with ELT. The (some are yellow) ELT is the Emergency Locator Transmitter, which should start its work on impact, and works above the water surface (ref its specific ELT higher frequencies). The ULB should start its work when it contacts(sea)water, and works under the water surface (ref its specific ULB lower frequencies). Seems like a small detail. But naming conventions are a sub-category of what is called “configuration management”. And the (most) advanced state of configuration management in aerospace, being both art and science, is (just) one of the reasons why the industry has become, and is, as safe as it is. @Archae86 - agreed. Note that his image shows horizontally mounted memory module cylinders. So they are not from 8501. Thanks for the nice and shiny image. Better one than you usually find. @p.j.m. - agreed. @albatross, note that the boss of the KNKT/NTSC pulls the CVR out of the black container by holding onto the ‘pinger’. |
@glendalegoon
these planes are sort of constructed in three big pieces...the front part, the middle part and the tail part ...so, it seems we have found the big parts and they sort of break up that way. Note that the production breaks that you mention are on the 'highest level'. Depending on the complexity and design date of the aircraft, there are a number of levels below that. A section break is not the same as the production break/interface of a fuselage panel for instance. This subject is a sub-part of the so-called "interface management". For all kinds of reasons there is a complex relationship between interface management and configuration management. I said something in my previous post about the latter subject. Let's hope they find the missing passengers and crew in the recently discovered sections. |
sunday 12.50 am nz
PANGKALAN BUN, Indonesia (AP) " High waves and strong currents in the Java Sea again prevented Indonesian navy divers from accessing the fuselage and what is believed to be the cockpit from the AirAsia plane that crashed three weeks ago, officials said.
A team of 15 navy divers tried to get to the wreckage to examine it and calculate its weight, but failed to reach it due to the unfavorable conditions, said Suryadi Bambang Supriyadi, director of operations for Indonesia's National Search and Rescue Agency. Indonesian survey ships have located at least nine big objects, including the jet's fuselage, what is believed to be the cockpit and an engine, Supriyadi said. The fuselage is sitting on the seabed at a depth of 28 meters (92 feet). The 30-meter-long (100-foot-long) fuselage and an attached wing were sighted Wednesday. Divers attempted to reach the wreckage Thursday and Friday, but were turned back because of the rough sea conditions. Authorities believe many of the bodies are still inside the fuselage. There were 162 people aboard Flight 8501 when it crashed into the sea Dec. 28 en route from Surabaya, Indonesia's second-largest city, to Singapore. Only 51 bodies have been recovered so far. The head of the search and rescue agency, Henry Bambang Soelistyo, said Friday that the fuselage would have to be lifted because of the divers' inability to reach it. This will be done by either using floating balloons, as the tail section was lifted earlier in the week, or cranes from tugboats. Soelistyo did not say when the operation would start. Divers, however, still need to reach the wreckage area. The wreckage that appears to be the cockpit was located by sonar imagery about 500 meters (yards) from the fuselage and was partly embedded in the mud. "What we have so far is only a silhouette of the wreckage," Supriyadi said. "We need to deploy our divers to identify whether it's the jet's cockpit or something else." He also said the divers have been told to retrieve the bodies of the pilot and the co-pilot if they are able to find them in the cockpit. |
CVR & DFR analysis
Hi there,
How long does it take to decode, visualize & analyse the DFR data ? (flight parameters, engine performance, structural modes,...). I mean to get the rought lines of the failure scenario ? I have been working several years on tactical missile design and testing. Knowing how a missile test had failed (in this case knowing whether it was a stall, a catastrophic descent due to a dual engine failure, or how these engine or other structural element failed, etc...) would have been a matter of several hours (if no data is missing/corrupted). |
Originally Posted by Hyperveloce
How long does it take to decode, visualize & analyse the DFR data ? (flight parameters, engine performance, structural modes,...). I mean to get the rought lines of the failure scenario ?
|
If they have a good idea of the cause but do not feel it urgent to release any information about it, can it be considered that the likely cause is something that does not pose an immediate risk to the operation of other aircraft of the type?
|
Originally Posted by quackers
(Post 8829158)
I'm sure most posters will recall the Ethiopian Airways hijacking back in 1996 (Boeing 767) in which 125 of the 175 persons onboard perished. The pilot ditched the aircraft a couple of miles off the African coast, which was a large factor in the survival of 50. The ditching was recorded on video by a tourist from the beach and is easily found via Google.
As with the Airbus, the 767 has engines below the wing and, as the aircraft hits the water the first break-away is the empennage. I believe the cockpit also broke away (both pilots survived). One can only imagine the terrific forces involved when the engines hit the water, acting as massive water dams - hence the transference of stresses throughout the aircraft and its breaking up. The outcome of that incident bears some uncanny comparisons with this latest tragedy in the way that the hull has apparently seperated. No doubt the true cause of this incident will be revealed during the next few days/weeks but I am of the opinion (for what it's worth) that the aircraft sustained complete/partial electrical & engine failure in the eye of the storm and the pilot(s) attempted a ditching as per the Ethiopian incident. I cannot see that an Airbus can fall from 32,000 feet and break into such large pieces upon contact with the water - at god knows what speed. As A0283 posted earlier these breaks tend to occur close to the strengthened interfaces - production breaks - between major components. This explains the similarity in components of the debris after very different accidents. |
| All times are GMT. The time now is 17:31. |
Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.