Caygill, I agree with this statement.

One thing is for sure - the only aircraft flying in that area post the M17 downing are military now. So "they" know who the enemy is now.

If nobody shot at the T7 then how come the wreckage has shrapnel holes?

Also how come the USA IR satellite saw the missile plume. And the AWACS over Romania watched it happen?

And why were the Russian militia claiming to have shot it down on Twitter and in a phone call?

grazing high-speed impact damage
 

While much of the damage in those photos looks to my unexpert eye like the effects of an airplane tearing itself to pieces by aerodynamic loads operating on whatever the initial damage was, at least one of the photos seems perhaps to suggest high-speed external impact.

grazing with exposed honeycomb

According to the BBC the train with refrigerated containers has finally left and is bound for the Netherlands. Good news at last.

SadPole

You wrote: "Russia says they have evidence that Ukraine did it...."

As far as I heard, there was no definite statement that the Ukrainian forces shot the plane. And this should be appreciated in contrast to many western officials who have immediately found (better say assigned) who were the bad guys.

Regarding the words that "and so does the US since US surveillance satellite was passing over Ukraine at that very time", it is not clear what was actually meant. The LEO sat, or the ones of these constellations:
Lockheed Martin-Built SBIRS GEO-2 Missile Defense Early Warning Satellite Certified for Operation · Lockheed Martin


GEO and HEO sats do not "pass over" any particular region. The first ones are hanging over the equator permanently, the HEO ones are over the intended region/hemisphere for some 18-20 hours a day.

xcris

I fully agree that it looks absolutely stupid to use Su-25 for any air-to-air strike if there are Su-27 and MiG-29 available (Su-24 is a bomber).
Perhaps it (Su-25) was used just to monitor how the situation was developing? In particular, to make sure the poor 777 indeed reached the ground....

To Kharkov, not to Netherlands.

The return of the bodies is important, and not just out of respect for the dead and the families.

Autopsies can be an enormously important part of the forensics in understanding airline crashes.

Eclectic - I haven't seen evidence for this - do you have a link?

Yes, it seems a logical inference that the plane WAS shot down, or all parties concerned would be eager to get investigators involved.

@AirScotia

It was a Tweet.
But the assets are there: NATO to fly AWACS planes over Poland, Romania to monitor Ukraine crisis | global aviation report

Edit, found this: https://twitter.com/TafkanMeh/status/489906873005801473

@AirScotia

This whole nonsense with not allowing access to the debris field appears to be complete propaganda by Obama and Kerry. OSCE clearly described what happened, and it Obama's and Kerry's interpretation is just scummy politics of Wag the Dog at its finest.

OSCE actually complained again and again that the site is open to everyone - which resulted, among other things, in hundreds of :mad: of all sorts taking thousands of pictures and posting them on the internet, many of them showing dead bodies, until web operators started removing them.

The Crash of MH17: Where Are the Facts on the Ground? - Businessweek

I am really personally getting tired of cheap US propaganda for complete morons.

- If someone tries to guard the site - SCREAM - they are limiting access
- If they don't guard the site - SCREAM - they are allowing tampering with evidence
- If they leave the bodies laying in the fields in scorching heat - SCREAM - they are disrespecting the bodies
- If they start collecting them - SCREAM - they are disrupting evidence on the ground
etc.

It's getting very tiring. The only way to do this right would have been to send UN troops right away with all the proper equipment. And if any of the sides objected, then say who and why refused access. None of it was done. Everything else is BS for the dumb masses.

Sky news are reporting that the trains containing the bodies are en-route to Kharkiv where they will be handed over to Dutch officials before being flown to the Netherlands in a Hercules.

That's good news, seems that things are moving in the right direction just wish it hadn't taken so long.

Other reports seem to be very contradictory about the possible fighter escort provided to MH17.

Was hoping to have more facts by now instead or more speculative reporting.

An irony for the Russians is that the SBIRS GEO-2 satellite was launched for the US Air Force using Russian built RD-180 engines. :ooh:

Re Su-25 ceiling. In the official press conference the Russian general specifically said that the SU-25 can briefly reach 10km, and the default ordanance includes the R60 air-to-air missile.

I can't see the Americans lying about the satellite evidence of a SAM launch, as they would know that too many people would have also had the equipment in place to call them on their fabrication.

As to the who's and whys the most probable is an cock up by the seperatists thinking they were firing on a military aircraft. nothing else makes sense. too many risks so so little gain for either the Russians or the Ukraine.

NATO's AWACS activity over Romania and Poland
 

A Romanian news agency (Mediafax) reported on Friday July 11 that NATO will analyse the onboard data from the two AWACS deployed in Romania and Poland from the beginning of the conflict in Ukraine. According to the quoted source (a NATO official) the two AWACS were on service at the time and data has been sent for analysis, but "due to the distance from the service area and the crash site we don't expect that any of the AWACSes to have records of the accident"

NATO analizeaz? datele de zbor ale avioanelor AWACS din România ?i Polonia, în tragedia din Ucraina - Mediafax

Further picks from the press confrence: "..the US had an experimental satellite capable of tracking missile launches flying ower the area at that exact time. Please show the world community this information...". 23m37 of the press conference

Tape ends with Russians telling that they will turn over all this material to the official investigation.

con-pilot:

He gave his permission, express or implied, to allow sophisticated BUK launchers to be delivered into rebel territory. Also, he surely knew about the other shoot downs in the days preceding MH17.

Appears the puzzle pieces are indicating detonation proximal to port side of nose:

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps19639e06.jpg

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps8462ba6d.jpg

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n...psda72b6f7.jpg

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n...pse3cf4a51.jpg

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n...psecf38792.jpg

Hmm. I'd be very careful about arguing that the Head of Government of a country that supplies arms to one side or another in a conflict is personally responsible for what they are used for.

Next thing, we'll have POTUS and The Prime Minister hauled off to The Hague to stand trial for "civilian collateral damage" in <insert name of chosen conflict theatre>... People in glass houses...

Shame that nugget of information, seemingly in the public domain, didn't find its way to the Ukrainian equivalent of the FAA/CAA or to Eurocontrol. Then someone might have closed the damned airspace and 298 people would going about their lawful business.

(Neither of those comments are intended to imply support for one side or the other, by the way. But using the deaths of innocents to make geopolitical hay while the sun shines doesn't exactly present an edifying spectacle, IMHO.)

from Justin Bronk on twitter:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BtFdZCdCIAAxSQ0.jpg

Bigger version here: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BtFdZCdCIAAxSQ0.jpg:large
Was that really the vector of the missile ?

surely the nail in the coffin is the tweet by the rebels claiming to have shot down an aircraft..?

coming from the same account they have tweeted from for months, and then deleted soon after it became apparent they had messed up.

you can bet twitter has had a pretty close look at that account for any tampering and would be screaming to high heaven if they knew anything

in regards to the above "news article" alex jones could make a conspiracy out of me going to the grocery store. completely non credible

RE: Oleole.
There´s just a catch, the damage on the right side wing doesn't match only 1 missile strike, so the question is if there was 2 Missiles..?
http://beforeitsnews.com/contributor...;-м1.jpg

And why is some holes going inwards-while other going outwards....?

The countries with satellite and sensitive surveillance assets are likely hoping that explosive material residue and warhead fragmentation holes in both the plane parts and bodies will confirm an AA missile and squelch any doubts without having to cough up data that would show means and methods. The photos above seem like a good start.

The post (at 1522 GMT) by Igor Strelkovo aka Igor Girkin on the VKontake social media site after the shootdown (at 1415 GMT) bragging and taking credit for it is hard to ignore. He said it fell near Torez, near Progress mine, in an open field and that "civilians were not injured. We have video." It was posted so fast they didn't wait to confirm what was shot down. The post was changed at 1610 GMT after it was discovered to be a civilian airliner, it now basically said...'it wasn't us.' At 1656 GMT he added ... we don't have such weapons. Social media is a double edged sword these days. Luckily the internet doesn't have an erase button, once posted...it's there forever.

Russian separatists did not think that would happen, they would shoot down other aircraft who was there to fly below the Boeing BUT slightly different route.

"Was that really the vector of the missile ?"

makes sense, since the plane was allegedly moving towards the missile(at a slight angle) and BUK missile explodes as soon as it gets to the proximity of the aircraft...

Oh please.

BBC News - MH17 air crash: Fears crash site evidence could be lost

Who's removing evidence from the crash site?

UN troops
 

Yes, well would be very nice but the small problem here is that UN troops do not exist -the UN does not maintain a readily deploy-able military force. The UN can pass a resolution to deploy international troops under its aegis that member states would contribute for the particular mission. This process takes a considerable amount of time and is therefore not a viable option here.

Yes
 

But that was not the only plane to fly A87 TAMAK SARNA that day in fact an AIR INDIA flight was 24 miles ( 90 seconds) away

For crying out loud! can people stop moaning about the flight path, it was planned and approved and flown by hundreds of flights in the week leading up to this tragedy, although the pilots deviated from the exact route they did nothing outside of SOP.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but no room for it here.

This plane was downed by pro-Russian militants (probably Russian army) using hardware supplied by Russia in Russian (separatist) controlled airspace. Hardware that was intended to hit Ukrainian Military Aircraft. They may have thought they were aiming for a Ukrainian Military Aircraft but they hit a civilian aircraft instead.


Results of this:
What will happen to Russia? Nothing.
What will happen to the commander whose men took this plane down?: He might end up in The Hague in 10 years.
Are Malaysian Airlines at fault? Are you retarded?
Will the victims families sue the Russian Government? Yes.

@WillFlyForCheese

I don't see somebody stealing evidence in this video.
If you mean the "black" box somebody has to pick it, as matter of fact I believe it is been delivered to the Malaysians as we speak.
Besides if the Dutch are satisfied then I can't complain myself.

May be this journalist is also tampering ?

Would an Su25 engage in a pull up manoeuvre to allow an R60 homing missile to lock on to a higher altitude target? The Russians allege the military aircraft their radar painted began to climb just before MH17 went down.

Makes no sense (although my Russian is practically non-existent).

- the images / diagrams show a 777 with 4 engines...
- pictures show (claimed) Ukrainian ground based arms, and then a Ukrainian fighter trailing the 777, but why would Ukraine target their own fighter from ground, or why would they use a large SAM to down an a/c if they already have a fighter on the target ?
- claiming there was a Ukrainian Su that confused the rebels into shooting it down makes no sense when the Russians / rebels also claim that they didn't do it and that they only have MANPADS ?
- elsewhere they claim Ukraine shot it down thinking it was Putin's plane - as if Putin's plane is going to fly over Ukraine with a Ukrainian Su next to it ?

MoD conference
 

The photos published on mil.ru are the same photos that were shown on Russian MoD conference today (Russian with English translation). Key thesis they were talking about, based on ATC radar data, satellite photos and their own analysis:

1. MH17 had an unexplainable deviation from the air corridor just before it crashed - just before Donetsk it went 14 km north, leaving the corridor, then apparently tried to return, and then was shot down
2. Ukrainian army had a number of "Buk" squads present in the area whose range covered MH17 crash location
3. There was Su-25 climbing towards the MH17 that got closest at 3-5 km distance from the Boeing
4. technically the Su-25 might reach 10 km and could be equipped with air-to-air rockets

This is more-less what they said. At least items 1 and 4 should be easy to verify, others are practically unverifiable.

I can't find confirmation that the black boxes were handed over at 7pm UK time, as agreed. Anyone know anything?

@tsenis -

Did you not hear the pro-Russian militia officer say that they were taking things from passengers, putting them on a truck for sorting out later?

Did you see the pro-Russian militia dumping out backpacks and rummaging through the personal effects of passengers?

Did you see the part where the pro-Russian militia were talking about looking for memory sticks to collect - because of the data they might contain?

And you accuse a bumbling UK reporter of vandalizing the scene by going through a single suitcase?

Now - I agree that the bumbling reporter should not be touching anything at the site and has inappropriately disturbed what I would call a crime scene. But - to suggest the pro-Russian militia are doing nothing wrong is a complete joke. Are you that blinded by dogma?

From the BBC:

pretty much disagree as much as it is humanly possible to do.

I come from a military aviation background, so maybe I see things differently, but in my line of business you don't fly over a SAM site which you know is operating below period.

In what universe is this hindsight? It is open air knowledge to anyone with an internet connection that there were SAMs in hands of gung-ho barely trained operators in this area. Likewise, the SAM envelopes were easily obtainable, without recourse to military intelligence.

Why do you think vulnerable civilian airliners with a duty of care to the passengers have some sort of immunity to hostile action and/or cockup/incompetence?

Takes some sort of hand-in-the-sand blinkered stupidity, to front up in hostile airspace with this you-can't touch-me I'm on an airway attitude.

We have have one thing in common though. I too hope the lawyers get stuck in...but its the aviation authorities and airline I want to see sued back to the stone age.

Complacency, driven by economic convenience IMO.

PS

And yeah, the murderous thugs that shot them down are evil beyond belief, but that's war for you...trouble is we've stopped calling it war now...that's an inconvenience as well.

Looks like the pinger is missing from the FDR, it's still attached to the CVR.

Agree with TwoOneFour regarding the "amazing" Russian press-conference.
Showing a stationary primary target after MH17 was hit/got into trouble. They really think a SU25 can hover? And why did the target show up just after MH17 was hit - where was it before? Suddenly they can track it after MH17 disappears? What about the theory it could be a big part falling off the 777 giving a primary blip? Amazing how naive the Russkies think the rest of the world is, showing this as proof. Our primary radar (for civilian ATC) can pick up large flock of birds. A big piece from an airliner would naturally give a primary echo.

Regarding the Spanish controller Carlos who supposedly knew two Ukranian planes shot down MH17 - hes another piece in the Russian media war.
Slik ble den «spanske «flygelederen Carlos» et symbol på Russlands feilslåtte propaganda - nyheter - Dagbladet.no
His twitter account has been debunked and is now closed. Same account was used during the Euromaidan-protests.

On the other side we have experts saying the BUK would easily identify a civilian airliner and its transponder... Really? More likely a lone BUK not in link with other radar systems can only track primary targets - not distinguishing between military, civilian, flock of birds...whatever...

Which side fired the missile is another matter. But showing evidence like this is embarrasing imho.