Jet2 Tailstrike @ FNC
 

Greetings,
Does anyone know how serious the tailstrike of the Jet2 @ Funchal/Madeira earlier today was?
Very few details available at present.

Special training required for FNC and rather more demanding than CMF or SZG, crew have to be approved to operate into FNC, it is often two Captain's (worst combination!) often training Capt's, a lot of diverts into TFS from FNC this week.

Porto Santo is ok for a fuel stop or waiting out a thunderstorm but not much else.

Wind limits for sector 300 - 010 is 15 knts gusting 25 knts, these are mandatory.

FNC is not practical or sensible for medical divert to/from Europe/TFS/LPA

Gosh, nothing much changed there eh ? Trap for all of us unsespecting. Way back in '83, FNC was a 'Captains only' and having just got my first Command, was being checked out there by our CP. Usual, talk through the downwind and special procedure (looking for the banana shed ) and a constant highly supportive and complimentary commentary stopped when we agreed that we were ' in the slot'. Thrust levers closed, ready for the upslope and then down-slope off the end of a cliff. B A N G . A touchdown any Navy pilot would have been proud of, taking the first wire. B u r t. CP seemed to have lost his voice as we taxid in. I meekly asked, after the autonomon clean-ups, " Did you get the landing time ? ". 'Well', said he,
'MY watch stopped at 06...................so, I guess, that's it !'. Rotter !

Years later, in trouble for some other offence (think I was laying a senior Trainer's girlfriend ), at check in for a night BAH, Crew Rostering Chief ran up, gave me a hug(yuk) and told me that the ' Heat's off you'. When pushed, he told me that some other bod had just bent the nosewheel of a 757 into the front toilet at FNC ! I blasted off to BAH and after the normal, SOP, crew party, changed into a Hosty uniform and dived into the hotel pool.

Later, Manch to FNC, forecast wx just on limits but actuals well within, taking TFS fuel, took an approach to FNC, didn't like it, went to PSO which then went below limits, by then, not enough fuel for TFS. Now, here's a good Command interview question................."What would YOU do ? " !!!

Point of all this. Watch for the traps. FNC is a big "gotcha" if you are not careful.

Gordomac, I remember the (AE) B757 nose wheel landing incident almost as if it was yesterday (uhm, wasn't the aircraft reg 'RM'?) and that it tied-up a valuable parking space on FNC's ramp for quite a number of days whilst an engineering team (from Boeing?) patched it up good enough for it to be ferry-flown out of there for repairs. Oh halcyon days. ;) :)

September 1987:

1987 | 2083 | Flight Archive

Thanks for the link, was an accident report published? I've tried searching the AAIB website under G-BLVH but nothing is appearing (and it's a similar case when I've tried yahoo).

If a report was published, it would have been by the GPIAA (Portuguese AIB), but there's nothing on their website for the incident, in fact very few reports from the 1980s as a whole.

Apparently the aircraftt spent a couple of months at Funchal being repaired by Boeing, was then ferried back to Gatwick at the end of October 1987 and went back into service shortly afterwards.

Back to the original post: what info over the sate of the a/c and what happened with the outbound pax etc? I wonder how long the winds remained and thus the delay for the rescue a/c.

I can't see any evidence on the flight-tracking websites of the aircraft's return to the UK, so it could well still be at FNC.

I suspect that the "minor damage" reported by AvHerald may have turned out not to be quite so "minor".

Jet2 Tailstrike @ FNC
 

Likely to have resulted in skin damage, so hardly a quick repair. I believe it is still out there.

Indeed, the aircraft is still parked @ FNC.

Looks like another pleasant stay for the Boeing team :D

Doom merchants ?
 

While tail strikes on landing with the B738 are usually more serious than ones on take off it has to be remembered that the aircraft is fitted with a tail skid and compressable cartridge to absorb the impact.

The result of this is that a minor scrape of the tail skid will not automatically damage the aircraft and may well not take it outside the maintenance manual limits.

So to instantly assume that major damage will be the result of putting the tail skid on the floor it a gross distortion of the facts.............. But it makes good reading on here and a cheap and lazy way for the newspapers to print more misinformed rubbish dressed up as fact.

Doom merchants? The incident occurred seven days ago. Surely, if the damage is not serious the aircraft could have been recovered by now. I got away over 100 landings at Funchal in the 757 and was able to follow the progress of the repairs on G-BLVH. Not only was the nose gear pushed up and back, the creases in the fuselage looked very serious. I think Boeng replaced the front fuselage, but I could be wrong. Anyway, VH handled normally after we got it back.

When the windsocks on the airfield point in different directions and the winds all have names, this must raise an eyebrow…. Tailstrikes on take off are the more common of the two here and usually caused by an increase in tailwind, just on rotate…

But things happen in everyday flying, usually due to the holes lining up in the cheese due to several factors, and risk limitation is what we do every day, only to be caught out occasionally and I'm sure Jet2 management will have assessed the risks in depth and written their Cat C Airfield Brief accordingly, i.e. bleeds off, flaps 15 maybe, no assumed or derate etc etc, and the crew worked to these SOPs to avoid a tailstrike. I know FNC tarmac is much longer than it used to be but the hill is still there, as are the winds so we must get our ducks in a row and get the gods on our side to the maximum extent.

I hope Jet2 don't blame the crew and instigate one of their famous kangaroo courts under the guise of HR procedures. Sh1t happens, and as A and C says the 800 has a sexy tail bumper which probably (I hope…) did what it said on the tin.

It happened on landing, which could result in more serious damage to the fuselage.

I don't think anybody is assuming that.

But the fact that the aircraft has been at FNC for a week now, following the incident, would suggest that we're not simply talking about replacing the crushable cartridge.

It's not really there to protect anything, it's just an indicator to show if there has been a scrape. It therefore gives you an easy indication without having to check the belly of the aircraft on a walk round. If it shows evidence of a scrape, you notify eng and they inspect the aircraft for damage.

The tail skid doesn't even come into it with a tailstrike on landing. During take off the a/c rotates around the main gear therefore, the point on the fuselage which would contact the runway is fixed. That is where the tail skid is positioned. During landing before the gear touches, the a/c is rotating around the c of g which is not in a fixed position. Even if the tail touches after main gear touchdown, the compression of the struts then also makes a big difference. Tailstrikes on landing are much more common a than takeoff on the 738. I found this v surprising as I only ever hear about tailstrikes on takeoff in my company. However it seems that most takeoff tailstrikes are subsequently re classified as tail scrapes when the only action required is replacement if the tail skid assembly.

Ballsout
 

I have to disagree with you, the tailskid is vital for protecting the aircraft from damage, without it a minor inccident involving an inspection and a quick splash of paint would turn into a very expensive engineering exercise.

FNC is a very demanding place to fly from and my biggest fear is that the Jet 2 blame culture will have kicked in.

With the operating conditions at FNC you have to expect to occasionally have problems, airlines need to except this fact or not go to FNC.

I doubt that the Jet 2 HR department will see it in this philosophical way when a witch hunt is far more fun.

Ah. On landing. That's different then if it didn't scrape on takeoff and return to FNC. And if it's more common on landing, it's odd, but I stand corrected!

But surely the cartridge is there to absorb some impact? It's not just a green/red indicator. Also, the SP ones have a longer and bigger skid usually. Maybe it was an SP doing it's job?

Was it an SP with the nice SP kit?

Thrush
 

I was thinking that was an unusual statment ! Having flown the aircraft since 2000 ( with a brief brake in the all electric French thing) almost all the tail contact inccidents that I have seen have been on take off.

I am sure that about 60% of the incidents on take off were partly due to low oil level in the MLG shock struts.

Good article from Boeing on tailstrikes here (pp6-13):

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aer.../AERO_Q107.pdf

which makes the points, already mentioned above, that tailstrikes are more common on landing than on takeoff, and it's the former that tend to do more damage.

- hmm! Not sure many folk would do that:D

Thanks for the link DaveReidUk. I've flown the type for several years also and too was extremely surprised to learn that tail strikes were more common on landing than take off. I'm assuming that is because the vast majority of tail strikes are actually classified as tail scrapes when only the tail skid assembly is damaged.

Well, if there is a blame culture now in Jet2, there certainly wasn't one a few years ago; hardly a culture which fosters flight safety IMHO.

BOAC.. Duh! I'll put my brain in gear. On a day off…! I suppose it would depend on the weight/fuel/weather/winds etc on the day, but unpressurized after a thump you'd not get far.

And thanks to DaveReidUK for that info. I'll have a read on the next long flight.

Some pictures can be seen here at the GPIAA report:

http://www.gpiaa.gov.pt/upload/membr...os/i006379.pdf

As well as the skin damage shown in the photos, the report mentions cracked stringers.

I really feel with the unfortunate J2 crew.

The wind seems to have been within limits, so they just were unlucky to be approaching at that time.

I guess we who fly into FNC, know we have a higher risk of "bending" an aircraft

Makes me wonder, why I keep flying there.

The company does not pay me more for flying there..........so why take the risk ?

I guess most of us like the challenge

Good pics airway… Looks like a fair bit of damage that even the longer SP bumper would not have helped. I notice it was from LBA…. Management pilots on a day out…? I wonder.
More used to the -300 and holding off for a smooth touchdown, maybe, instead of thumping it on as per FCTM, but A and C makes a good point regarding the oleos not being up to pressure correctly.

I feel for the crew whoever it was. But if it was a management day out, the umbrellas will be up, and if not, the kangaroo court will be getting convened.

I see there has been a further update regarding last weeks Jet2's Boeing 737-800WL tail-strike incident in Funchal.

Accident: Jet2.com B738 at Funchal on Feb 17th 2014, tail strike on landing

I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of posters (responders) here don't fly commercially, and [or] if they do, haven't operated into this airfield, or anything similar.

FNC, KOS, INN, SZG etc, have far more challenges than any regular airfield re runway length, topography, MLWs, MTOWs, MSA's and local weather conditions etc.

LHR, STN, LGW etc are busy but very well controlled and straight forward.. So if you ain't been in the hot seat don't be too quick to criticise.

I do fly jets and I have flown to all those places (except LHR). I really feel for the crew concerned and here for the grace of God...... however, if true, a bounce that takes you another 1000' to touch down again is a pretty big bounce to continue to land with. I say that not as a criticism of the crew, I might have done worse, but as something to avoid if it contributed to the event.

Had a similar approach a few years back. Windy but not much turbulence. BUT dramatic speed loss in the flair. Touch down fairly hard but went around, trouble was we nearly hit the ground again. If we had it would have been very hard. I believe ground effect saved the day. Didn't have any more attitude available or I would have hit the tail. Speed loss if I remember was in excess of 25 knots.
I have much sympathy for the crew.

I didn't realise the runway had been extended from 1,800m to 2781m in 2000. It may remove TOW restrictions, but the fickle winds on the approach to 05 are still waiting to trap the unwary. The runway length was only 1600m when I flew the 737/200, so we always had to refuel at Porto Santo on the return leg. The 757, although more of a handful to land there, had the performance to fly non stop to the UK, and for the first time F/O's were allowed to carry out take-offs from FNC.


I just hope the crew are not pilloried for something that could easily happen to anyone operating into Funchal.

Hope you don't mind a quick comment from an SLF but in the GPIIA note, does the scrape not look to be a bit off-centre to port suggesting the a/c was also banked a little bit when it touched? (If so, that's just an observation on the challenging circs, not a criticism of anyone!)

Having operated there for many years, I can report the winds are, indeed, "fickle". But give me FNC any day over any of the Alpine airports with the go-round towards the mountains.

And if you look at the actuals in the Av Herald reporthttp://avherald.com/h?article=47025f64&opt=0 you will see the Rosario wind is very different to the 05 etc etc…. As I said previously, when all the windsocks point in different directions, it's time to tread very carefully.

I have to say though ATC are usually very good at letting you know they think you should bugger off, and in my experience, the wind is never on the dividing line on the chart diagram and they make it clear when it's out of limits.

Thrush
 

The critical thing about the shock strut in the oil quantity as it is hard to check and gets mis-remembered, it is quite hard to get the shock strut pressure wrong but small errors in pressure are less critical than the oil quantity as this has a very important effect on the rising rate suspention to use a motor racing term?