Some good news/bad news from the EU! EASA FTL rejected
 

Right on!
Looks like round one went to us!

At least now the EASA can't just rule alone.
As little of democracy there is in the EU, this bit worked our way.

Can someone explain to me again how that man can be allowed to hold any position of power? SES2+, the new flight rules, wherever he sticks his fingers the result scares me.

Well done, BALPA. I don't believe this would have happened if it wasn't for the tremendous effort done by them on members' behalf.
Imagine how effective they could be in representing pilots' issues with even more members!

That wasn't BALPA, it was VC in Germany, as far as I am concerned.
Obviously every pilots union in Europe worked against that, so I aplaud the joint effort. Not just a single union.
Think more broadly.

The battle might be won, but the war is far from over boys...

That was only round one, two more rounds of voting remain in the next 2 months so don't pop the bubbly just yet.

A battle won but a war still to be fought
 

Captaintcas has got it spot on: "The battle might be won, but the war is far from over boys."
On BBC Question Time on Friday night, it was clear the UK MPs have little idea how excessive flight duty time limits affect air safety. the EU MEPs on the committee have taken a vital step, but it is just one more step. We now need to get EASA to stop buckling under the commercial pressures from airline owners. EASA Must use scientific data to build on the limits already well established and improve on them not relax them and wind the clocks back to limits used 50 years ago.

Might be an idea to get the MP/MEP to try out one of the roster patterns and see how they like it. Bearing in mind that none of them have ever really considered what it will actually be like.
I know I've asked mine to try it to see what they think, still waiting on an answer tho.

Good first result hopefully the next one will go on the right side of safety.

Vasco, I was also shocked listening to Question Time. Ken Clarke showed himself to be a true politician by complete ignorance of the sleeping pilots / new FTL proposals and successfully waffling around the subject and not answering the question. I was so incensed I immediately sent an e-mail to his office to enlighten him. None of the others on the panel were able to make sensible replies either so it shows that although BALPA having been working hard with their campaign, it hasn't reached far enough.

Remember what the airlines have said in reply...the increased duty times will be good for our customers/pax! They will win, always have, just a few funny handshakes in the right club.

Regretably, you have probably correctly identified the "mechanism" by which they will come to a "considered judgement" :hmm:

Just to say that there are also a fair amount of Pilots who are members of this " funny handshake" club...including yours truly.

A little aside: I wanted a tree cut down in my garden and needed the council's permission. The authoritative person was a tree hugger and said no, even though the tree was dying. There was a violent storm and I and the neighbours claimed we saw the tree rocking in an unstable fashion. Still the tree hugger said no. The tree was next to the pavement and parked cars. I said that if the tree fell down in the next storm and injured children or damaged cars I would alert the victims to his ruling and he would be responsible.
The next day I received my permit for tree felling.
Ergo; if the parliament approved these new FTL's in the face of conflicting evidenced and opinion, and then there is a human factors related crash which could have been effected by these same FTL's, then a finger should be pointed at the aye voters. In this day of 'buzz words' let's educate the bureaucrats in TEM. Let's also educate the pax in the quality of risk management by their so-called leaders and those who are supposed to be taking care of the public. It is a classic case of profit versus risk at the travelling public's expense. Let's tell them.

Maybe not such good news. The spin has started. Passenger safety at risk after EU rejects changes to pilots? hours, transport official warns - Home News - UK - The Independent

f1yingwellie
 

As somebody in an earlier post said this is only one battle, see link below.

World governance: EU pilots to sleep in their cockpits

Vasco and Oldsalt,

When discussing FTL, Clarke refers to: "Public transport drivers - paid for much longer than they're in an aeroplane - public servants." and Hamilton says "Put a tin tack on the seat."

Do those people realise that they are in public positions and making public pronouncements which demonstrate their ignorance?

AndyPandy068, I think he's just trying a bit of bullying.

It is a good news, sometimes they have to be stopped in Brussel. If you let them do what they want they will push the line to infinity :(

Old Salt wrote:

None of the others on the panel were able to make sensible replies either so it shows that although BALPA having been working hard with their campaign, it hasn't reached far enough.

I have no axe to grind as a retired nav - but I watched 2 BALPA reps on TV - one put the argument very cogently and in language the man on the Clapham supertram could understand; the other spoke in 'aircrew speak' with a plethora of acronyms so I had to translate for the rest of my family. If you only get a few chances to make your point - the man making it needs to be the right one - and that includes coaching and much practice.

Somewhere in the flurry of audio "meejah" reporting on this, I detected the phrase "there would be MORE fatigue-related accidents if the EASA proposals became the norm" or words to that effect.

Does anyone have a link to a database of "fatigue accidents", or any stats on the reports, which stress this as a significant contributory cause?

Presumably those at the front of the battle have access/knowledge of such data? :confused:

"Just to say that there are also a fair amount of Pilots who are members of this " funny handshake" club..."

Once upon a time in a RAF long ago, we used to wonder how and why some particularly incompetent and noxious aviators managed to get promoted.

Then the same discussion would be heard amongst my civilian counterparts..........

Food for thought as the subject has now been aired? Maybe a new thread, but how long would it last before>>>>>>> <<<<<<<<<<<<I'm sorry, your're breaking up, we'll try and get back to you! :=

Err - last time I checked, Marxism was an (admittedly flawed) political movement intended to *improve* working conditions. Airline pilots were apparently considered something of an elite in the former Soviet Bloc, but I fail to see the relevance. Also, let's face it, corruption is as rife here in the UK as it is in any former Soviet state you'd care to name - but our great and good have been doing it in such a refined manner for so long that few dare call it corruption.

Don't get me wrong - this legislation sounds like it was poorly conceived and assumes altogether far too much in terms of airlines sticking to the intended spirit of the legislation as opposed to using it as a performance target. But ultimately the group of pilots' unions must make a case for involvement in drafting a revised version of the legislation, as to do otherwise runs the risk of having it railroaded through anyway.

Have just finished reading through Siim Kallas's Wiki profile - somebody please explain to me how this person is appropriately qualified in any way, shape, or form, to refute or even debate robust scientific evidence regarding human fatigue or performance factors on the flight deck.
His curriculum vitae shows no evidence of interest, history, expertise or qualification whatsoever in the safety issues upon which he is pontificating.
Clearly he is an experienced politician - I dare say, lobbyist - but since his current administrative position in "Transport" does not bestow upon him any special relevant credentials or scientific insight into his subject, you might just as soon get meaningful counterpoint by quoting my cat.

......and also shows extremely bad leadership, one who does not listen or communicate with people about such change would be a dictator.....

Seems like an ideal candidate for a good dose of CRM indoctrination.

Once again it is money/profit driving the show. In this time of so-called financial crisis (let's called it a common sense adjustment to attitude) the money men will always have the sway over the politicians. But I say again: just because the machines have increased their operating time without rest & re-fuelling does not mean the humans have done the same. If it was considered, some years ago, normal & reasonable for humans to operate 10-11hrs working days/nights, then just because an a/c can now fly for 15 hours it doesn't follow that the humans can stretch their natural endurance. And certainly not regularly over a short period. They will break down. If you over stress an a/c it will break or wear out faster. The humans are the same, except the breaking point is different for everyone and is an unknown unscientific quantity. The money men are guessing and the bowing scraping profit friendly politicians are too easily in agreement. Are the XAA's not supposed to be the guardians of the industry. Are they too swayed by bonuses and dosh? What other industries are going through this debate? What other groups of workers are being subjected to this assault on their lively-hood and life-styles. I suspect the medical profession has been subjected to something similar, but I doubt if there is any other transport, or safety related, industry that is under such stressful change. If there is then let's hear about it. If not, then why only aviation?

They're trying to push through a vote on the 9th - debate on the 8th.

Email your MEPs (WriteToThem - Email or fax your Councillor, MP, MEP, MSP or Welsh, NI, London Assembly Member for free) asking them to attend and to vote IAW the Transport Committee findings.

Very interesting question, is it spin perhaps?

Perhaps in the colganair accident report? That was the gamechanger in the US

Fred.

That link of yours makes it so easy to send a letter to all the MEP's for your area. Just a few keystrokes and you can get your message across. A link for the Transport Committee stuff is here:

MPs publish follow up report on flight time limitations - News from Parliament - UK Parliament

It's a must read.

Remember to keep the letters short and sweet, to the point, and please - keep the emotion out of it.......

Excellent advice. It's about what is safe, not about who is right or wrong. There is solid evidence to support tighter duty day requirements. Remind them of that. Remind them that complaints they get from industry are no different than complaints voiced by auto makers that tighter safety requirements cost money. People pay more for new cars today because we've mandated safety improvements like air bags, ABS and crumple zones. Those safety improvements were based on evidence.

Golfsierrayankee

Perhaps the voyage report stating that he had not had suitable rest, written by the Captain before his Hermes aircraft G-ALDJ crashed at Blackbushe on 5th Nov 1956 may have influenced Parliament to introduce Flight Time Limitations in the U.K.

( I was required to have a medical if I exceeded 125 flying hours in a month. If fit, some said that I could do a further 125 hours...!)

Two Captains, two Flight Engineers, one First Officer, one Radio Officer and two Bunks were now required for a "Heavy Crew" who could, with Captain's discretion, be On Duty for 24 hours, but must be Scheduled for 16 or less, IIRC.

( Our Hermes had de-rated engines, using 100 octane, so we normally flew at around F/L 10.0 with the cabin pressurised to 2 or 3,000 ft. raising the cabin altitude for Nairobi.)

WHAT HOPE FROM OUR ELECTED MPs & MEPs?
 

Good idea to have a concerted push by us professionals to awake our elected representatives to the impending disaster!

However, having just finished trawling through the very comprehensive book "The Great Deception" by Booker & North, I fear the damage may be done already and we will end up being well and truly shafted. (If you can't afford the time/cost etc, try the review on Amazon?)

The EU "Project" has since the early part of the last century been built on lies, half-truths, deception and moving the goalposts when the leaders didn't like the score.

Witness the recent habit of forcing electors to vote again if the peasants failed to vote "the right way".

Witness the fact that their accounts have failed to be signed off for more than a decade and the treatment of whistleblower Marta Andreasen who flagged up the evidence of fraud of OUR money on an astronomical scale.

I could go on but I trust the message is clear, as we drift into a supranational state more like the old communist autocracy from post WW11, our FTLs are only a small issue but one which we should fight with all our enthusiasm.

And yes, I have e-mailed my MEP, have you..................? :ugh:

PS. Mods, should this thread be joined up with the pilots falling asleep thread, there appear to be too many postings with a common thrust?

Prior to ANY FTLs in Feb '56 we flew. as a single crew (Captain, F/O, F/E and R/O + Cabin crew) on a U.K. Government charter for the routine replacement of personnel between Salisbury (SR), Singapore and Lusaka (NR). Accommodation had been arranged by the Government for the passengers in Aden and Colombo ( each way).

We stayed on the Government's schedule for the 16 day trip. We flew for 119.10hours in 15 sectors but there could have been a further 3+ hours if we had needed to refuel at Karachi on our return flight. as well as outbound.

And that was a Government charter. LEGAL ? Yes, by the standards then current. SAFE (potentially) ? Not to today's standards, i'm sure.

I do not know just how much thought had been given. Many sectors were on routes with which we were unfamiliar.

The Captain was killed in the Blackbushe accident, some months later.

You make a vote sound like a bad thing. Do you not want a vote? Who do you mean by "they"?

from the BALPA wakeup site:

Cathar, it is not the fact that anyone objects to there being a vote, but the indecent haste and vote regime that required 50%+1 votes to uphold the rejection of the proposals. Note also the timing of the debate and vote to be 1 day before a planned Air Traffic Control [almost] Eurpe-wide strike which will doubtless see many MEP's leaving the Parliament to return for the weekend before the vote takes place!

Would BALPA get together with any other strong EU pilots' union(s) and threaten to bring the network to a halt if this proposal goes through?

Desperate times need desperate measures, and shirley this is now the time?! :ugh:

That is complete and utter garbage. This is just the normal legislative process being followed. With this type of legisaltion the Commission has to refer it to the European Parliament for scrutiny. The Parliament then has three months to consider matter and, if it deems it appropriate, to adopt a motion to oppose the adoption of the Regualtion.

It is the Parliament and not the Commission which detemines the dates for any debates and votes in the Parliament. I imagine it is fairly common for a motion to be refered to the next plenary session after it has been agreed by the relevant committee.

My understanding is that the three month scrutiny period ends in three weeks time. If the vote is not taken this week then there is only the plenary session in the week beginning 21 October in which a vote could be scheduled. You also have to remember that this will be only one amongst a very large number of issues under consideration by the Parliament that will need to be fitted into the Parliaments schedule. They will all be important to different groups of people.

The absolute majority required to prevent the adoption of such Regulations is again part on the normal legislative process and not something that has been introduced by the Commission for this particular vote.

"That is complete and utter garbage."
 

If their past record on "democratic" voting and "procedures" is anything to go by, then it is NOT utter garbage.

We're discussing the modus operandi of a group of humans who have lost touch with reality and the democratically expressed wishes of their populations. :=

Cathar

This a response from one MEP

Now I don't know when the schedule was changed to add a plenary session for the 9th October, but at the very least it is very likely that many MEP's will have likewise made other arrangements believing there to be no need to be in Strasbourg that day. I stand by the BALPA comments.

BALPAs allegation that I quoted is quite clearly laughable. The Commission has no control over the Parliament.

I can see that there may be some issues with the timing of the Parliament's vote. However, all business which has been scheduled for next week will be affected. It is not a conspiracy against pilots.