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-   -   Standard of RT in USA (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/518923-standard-rt-usa.html)

Dream Land 29th Jul 2013 01:51

Just be happy that when we call the center in the states, they don't respond with "Pass your message" :rolleyes::rolleyes:

White None 29th Jul 2013 03:49

Acroguy

So you join PPRUNE in 2007, wait 6 years to formulate a pithy, meaningful, thought provoking post of substance..... and that's it? What you need old son is a nice cuppa tea. :D

SMOC 29th Jul 2013 07:01


Line up and wait
4 words.

4 syllables.



Taxi into position and hold
5 words.

9 syllables.


I know which I prefer :ugh:

Cows getting bigger 29th Jul 2013 07:15

Do the 'Merikans still use Inches of Mercury or have they caught on that the Hectopascal is now all the rage? :rolleyes:

If ever there is an industry that needs international standards, it is aviation.

acroguy 29th Jul 2013 11:50


Quote:
Line up and wait
4 words.

4 syllables.


Quote:
Taxi into position and hold
5 words.

9 syllables.


I know which I prefer
Prior to the change, you would hear clearances such as "Taxi into position runway 1, keep it moving, be ready to go following the Learjet crossing right to left."

After the change, what is the controller supposed to do, issue a clearance like, "Line up and wait, keep it moving...?" Yep, that's really clear. I have never heard a clearance like the first one since the change.

As to ICAO standard English in Europe, I have done quite a bit of flying in the south of France -- always with a French pilot since there is not a word of English to be heard...

galaxy flyer 29th Jul 2013 12:23

Cows get bigger,

We'll move over to millibars when everyone STANDARDIZES on one transition altitude, may I suggest FL180 and 17,000'?

Cows getting bigger 29th Jul 2013 12:33

Yes, I would be happy with that. :0 However, millibars seemed to have disappeared a year or two back. :cool:

BuzzBox 29th Jul 2013 12:35


If ever there is an industry that needs international standards, it is aviation.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there ARE international standards. Trouble is, the US doesn't follow them! :E

500 above 29th Jul 2013 12:50


We'll move over to millibars when everyone STANDARDIZES on one transition altitude, may I suggest FL180 and 17,000'?
UK and Ireland consult on a common transition level

GF, get ready for the hectopascal...

At least we all have "fish finders" these days if one was to mis set the sub scale...

Dont Hang Up 29th Jul 2013 14:02


Line up and wait
4 words.

4 syllables.


Quote:
Taxi into position and hold
5 words.

9 syllables.


I know which I prefer
And then of course the real reason -"hold" can be mistaken for "roll"

acroguy 29th Jul 2013 14:53


Quote:
Line up and wait
4 words.

4 syllables.


Quote:
Taxi into position and hold
5 words.

9 syllables.


I know which I prefer
And then of course the real reason -"hold" can be mistaken for "roll"
"Taxi into position and roll?" Are you kidding?

That was never in anybody's controller syllabus...

Easy Street 29th Jul 2013 22:11


And then of course the real reason -"hold" can be mistaken for "roll"
I thought the reason for the change was that virtually all countries use "hold" (in a ground manoeuvring context) to mean "do not enter the runway"? It's an important enough instruction that it should not have any other uses in a similar context, just as "take off" is replaced with "departure" in all R/T except the actual delivery of the take off clearance.

galaxy flyer 29th Jul 2013 22:13

It maybe only 3 countries using inches, vice millibars, but the USA has just short of 50% of all flying, which counts for something. Canada uses proper inches, too.

It's just a flip of the switch, anyway.

White None 29th Jul 2013 22:43

Acroguy
 

"Taxi into position runway 1, keep it moving, be ready to go following the Learjet crossing right to left."
So Imagine trying to understand that call, possibly made in a heavy US regional accent and pushed out at high speed, in your second language! I find it hard enough and "English" is my first language. you then say:-


I have never heard a clearance like the first one since the change.
As if we should all agree that it's a sad loss!? Standardisation of wording and pronuncuation is not there to make it pleasant, chatty and relaxed for some, but to make it unequivocably clear to all.

As regards French speaking French in France, I agree - unacceptable.

acroguy 30th Jul 2013 00:07


Quote:
"Taxi into position runway 1, keep it moving, be ready to go following the Learjet crossing right to left."
So Imagine trying to understand that call, possibly made in a heavy US regional accent and pushed out at high speed, in your second language! I find it hard enough and "English" is my first language. you then say:-
I would say that that is extremely straightforward English, with no odd nouns or verbs and should be understood by anybody claiming to understand even rudimentary English. If any professional pilot doesn't understand that clearance, then God help us all...

The total clearance would probably be more like: " Taxi into position runway 1, traffic landing runway 28, keep it moving -- be ready to go after the Learjet crossing right to left, company on a two mile final for runway 28"

And, in my experience, tower clearances such as these are not typically delivered at high speed. High speed is usually an approach specialty...

Una Due Tfc 30th Jul 2013 00:22

ICAO allow in cases where an aircraft is not crossing an international border, they can speak the local lingo. I know this is not the case in France IE AFR and TSC frequently speak French. Unacceptable. As for "Line up and wait" , it's clear, and takes less time to say. When your freq is busy this is an asset, that's why I personally prefer it

acroguy 30th Jul 2013 00:48


ICAO allow in cases where an aircraft is not crossing an international border, they can speak the local lingo. I know this is not the case in France IE AFR and TSC frequently speak French. Unacceptable. As for "Line up and wait" , it's clear, and takes less time to say. When your freq is busy this is an asset, that's why I personally prefer it
So what is the clearance when the tower needs an immediate takeoff for traffic? "Line up and wait, cleared for immediate takeoff, no delay?"

Is is possible that those operating in other parts of the world have no appreciation of how hard US ATCO's are pushing traffic over here?

pigboat 30th Jul 2013 01:16

What's the difference between a hectopascal and a millibar? :confused:

galaxy flyer 30th Jul 2013 01:30

acroguy,

Please stop embarrassing us Americans who fly overseas and are under enough embarrassment for our radio "techniques". "Line up and Wait" was a simple improvement. Why would an ATCO say "into position and hold, cleared for immediate"?

pigboat, a couple of syllables, I'd guess and a salute to a forgotten Frenchman like most scurvy metric ideas. :cool: :p

acroguy 30th Jul 2013 01:47

I promise to stop contributing to this thread, but I never said the old clearance was "position and hold, cleared for immediate". I said the clearance used to be "taxi into position, cleared for an immediate...". The point being, what is the point of the word "wait" if the clearance is going to be for an immediate?

I also promise to stop being embarrassed for the UK guys who apparently are flabbergasted at being cleared to land 7-8 miles from the airport here in the US. Imagine that. Maybe ICAO could learn something.


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