Using mobiles on planes.
 

I guess this'll generate the usual 10 page flame war about using mobiles on planes.

Researcher hacks aircraft controls with Android smartphone ? The Register

The smartphone aspect is a bit of a red herring. He used an smartphone with an external radio. The same exploit could be done using a laptop, a tablet, or just a box of electronics.

Given that this is 'spoofing' radio messages, there's also absolutely no reason why an attacker would be on the plane. Easier for them to sit on the ground and do it remotely.

Still, it's an interesting article/presentation and nice work.

Now this is half a story designed to create a scare on limited facts.

The story's only real specifics refer to interference with comms. Specifically ACARS (VHF) and ADS-B (the SSR 1090MHz frequency).

Now I am no expert on Android phones but am pretty certain they do not have capabilities on either of those frequencies. So what is Mr Teso really saying? That the device can be used to control jamming equipment on these frequencies? So could just about any other programmable device.

Whatever this story is, it is certainly not a "mobile phones on aircraft story". It simply boils down to a much older and well known issue of the vulnerability of ACARS and ADS-B. Is there seriously any aircraft that can have its systems re-programmed over ACARS without any flight crew intervention or knowledge?

In my eyes nothing but BS:mad:
To be exact the headline should be:
Researcher hacks virtual aircraft controls with Android smartphone

Yes indeed. Flight simmers should be deeply worried by this development.

:8

Tech Log thread already running on this:

http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/51230...onference.html

mobiles and aircraft systems
 

I flew the J41 for Eastern between age 60/65 as I was unemployable elsewhere.

We had a number of problems with the pod smoke warning system which seemed to activate whenever mobile was used in a particular seat. The wiring for the system routed under that seat. When we got stroppy with the pax the system warnings always ceased

It seems that some systems and installations, designed before mobile phones, are vulnerable to induced surged when the mobile phone goes to high power seeking a mast. Some of these older systems are still used in modern aircraft.

It seems cable shielding is the key issue

It does appear that there have been numerous proposals for encrypting or otherwise securing ACARS messages for quite some time (i.e., a decade or more). Perhaps this will prompt swifter action.

Wifi
 

At Norwegian, wifi is proposed from and to FL 100. Passengers who have smart phones then go out of the airplane mode to connect. There has been no problem so far though the phones enter search mode in parallel with wifi.

Who is right?:suspect:

This is a misleading thread title, largely no doubt due to the poor quality of the press coverage and the emphasis placed there on the use of a mobile phone in a demonstration. The vulnerabilities discussed by Hugo are very real and exist, but mobile phones are not a part of the potential attack vector, it just happened to be an interface he used for this demonstration.

That's a good example of proof that mobile phones can, on rare occasions, cause interference.
I also use the example of the Mythbusters test where they build a replica cockpit with a heap of instruments, used a mobile phone near it and a lot of the clocks went a bit crazy. But then they found that it happened because of the non-shielded wire they were using. They replaced all the plain wire with shielded wire and all the problems went away.
So for anyone to say that mobile phones can't affect aircraft systems, all you have to do is prove to me that 100% of the wiring on 100% of aircraft is perfectly shielded and I'll be happy.

Not necessarily. On Android when in Aeroplane Mode, one can activate Wifi but leave the mobile/cell part of it off. Same same Bluetooth.

In a previous life (1997/9) I worked in flight calibration - we tested Nav aids. Our testing kit was regularly calibrated. Cellphones were analogue - they are digital nowadays. When calibrating our kit a signal generator that replicates an ILS ground station was connected via a well shielded cable to our "ILS" kit (receiver). If I walked up and down the workshop with my cell phone switched on I could watch the glide slope needle change from full fly up to full fly down, depending on my distance from our kit. I know analogue cell phones can cause interferance to an ILS. I don't know if digital ones can. Also, AC wiring is much more protected today.

Rest of the world calls shenanigans on the original report ...

FAA: 'No, you CAN'T hijack a plane with an Android app' ? The Register

Well! At EK the pax have wifi Internet and mobile phone useage on just about all of the fleet. 380, 777, 330 and 340. Never had the aeroplane flip over into a 'death dive' yet:D:D

Modern A/C I hope would be harden so it should not effect them. Older designs will still have unshielded wiring. Also, the technology is digital now, the old technology I referred to was analogue.

alnicol

Both ARINC and STIA allow messages from various devices including pagers to be uplinked as an ACARS message. See the slide 'Access Methods'. There is no need to have an ACARS radio frequency - just the capability to send a malformed message. However, Tesa also showed he obtained the ground station capability too by buying systems on ebay.

There are multiple ways this can be exploited. It makes sense to be cautious.

Let's not.

( and nothing to do with interference of electronics, more to do with interference of my enjoyment of life without the damned things. )

If it happens lets allocate seating to all those who feel they have to use their phones "Hi, I'm on the plane" at the back, that should keep them out of the way nicely.

The actual frequency of the radio is not what allows a signal in. It is a little bit more refined than that. The details of which I won't share here. := But as I mentioned on another thread, this is possible if you know how to approach the problem. Easier to call it bull**** :oh: and put your head in the sand.

I shall call your bluff on that one. No interface, no access.

And kindly refrain from the finger wagging please!

IF, no finger wagging. Do carry on. I bet you a quid you have no idea w
hat IF means

A user
 

I fly regularly with SQ and have recently started to use the 'On Air' system. A confusing set-up because in order to use my phone with this system I have to have the phone out of flight mode to access the wifi - presumably all the time the phone is connected to wifi it is also hunting around for a signal, I know this is the case because (rarely) I have had txt messages during flight such as "O2 - Welcome to Kazakstan to receive calls will cost etc etc".

NB I do not - and would not for reasons posted by others - use the phone to make a call, frankly I could do without the hassle, certainly would not want anyone calling me! But using iMessage, Whatsapp etc is quite handy. Muting a phone is easy enough.

Is there any real risk of using these devices on a modern aircraft? Isn't this more about being socially inept rather than causing a hazard.

I would have thought it very simple to place messaging within an older aircraft - or a newer one - that said "this aircraft is/ isn't compatible with mobile phones on mute for messaging purposes only".

As I said before, Android phones can be in Flight Mode (no data/mobile roaming) but the Wifi can be turned on. Go to Flight Mode then turn Wifi on.

Bisflyer. Most mobiles don't differentiate with regards to phone function and wifi. Take it out of flight mode and the phone tries to find a network as well as wifi. While it searches in passive mode, not transmitting, once it finds a decent signal it does a network update, transmits. An old post explaining how it works here http://www.pprune.org/passengers-slf...tml#post629768

It MAY cause problems, but experience tells me it probably won't. A bit like the ban on phones in garage forecourts, the worries were shown to be unfounded.

Receiving a text message means your phone is operating normally and connected to a network

While not boring you to death, there are a whole host of reasons why radio waves interfere with each other, and with electronic equipment in general. Previous comments about unshielded wiring is not really valid, just speculation, the power levels are too low for it to be a problem.

It comes back to the IF I mentioned, in the case of ACARS and other aviation radios, and GSM/3G they are different so cannot interact accidently - trying to do it on purpose is another issue.

Planes have not been falling out of the sky since mobiles have been around, and countless millions have forgotten to turn them off, so I think it's safe to say there is no big problem coming anytime soon. But I do still turn mine off when told to :)

Androids do! You can be in Flight Mode (disabling mobile phone function) and activate Wifi! There is no need to go out of Flight Mode to get the Wifi working.

Post #11 - which seems to be ignored so far - has the answer to that.

msbbarratt
 

My answer to you is show me a plane that has crashed due to a mobile phone? There isn't one.

You should let readers know about location updates, which happen every few KM. As you are jetting across the world, that is quite often.

But back to point one. It hasn't happened so don't be afraid.

Edited to say, I was trying to educate people about how mobiles work, and the fact they don't really cause any problems.

The other issue of accessing systems is obviously beyond some other commentators.

I have no interest in trying to argue the toss with them. They know best....

i-Phone can go Airplane mode and then switch Wi-Fi on.
My advice - if you see someone with their mob CLEARLY switched on to cellnet, don't bother to take direct action; just inform cabin crew and let them deal with it.

Actually, the maximum permitted transmitter power varies by both technology generation and frequency band. There is also some variation in the radio regulations of various countries, but the cellular standards attempt to define power levels by frequency band such that the resulting handsets can be used world-wide. The vast majority of cellular handsets (as opposed to vehicle-mounted cellular transmitters and fixed cellular devices such as burglar alarm transmitters, etc.) operate at maximum transmit power levels of 0.5 Watts or less. In the USA, the FCC rules limit hand-held radiotelephone devices to a maximum of 0.6 Watts EIRP.

The GSM (2G) standard does include a "power class 1" where the device is permitted to transmit at up to 2 Watts peak power. However, handsets are "power class 2" devices with a maximum transmit power of 0.5 Watts. UMTS (3G) handsets are "power class 3" devices with a maximum transmit power of 0.25 Watts . LTE (4G) handsets are also "power class 3" devices, but with max transmitter power specified as 0.20 Watts. There is also a "power class 4" (at least in some frequency bands) at 50% of the levels for power class 3, but I am not sure anybody is making class 4 devices. In 4G, the LTE specs provide for a power class 4, but as of LTE release 11 (February, 2013) only class 3 is defined (except for frequency band 14 -- uplink frequency 788MHz -- where power class 1 is also defined, but not used in handsets).

I designed controller chips for use in cellular handsets until 2010, and still consult in that field, so I have the relevant standards documents on my computer.

We've had this discussion (although less technically informed) more often than I care to remember in the Pax/SLF forum on PPRuNe.

Depressingly, the historical position has been that for some passengers, there is no acceptable authority that can prevent the continued use of electronics on-board: They simply regard the imposition as affecting others, but not themselves. There is nothing (except possibly a published accident report with the confirmed single issue cause of passenger use of electronics during a critical flight phase) that will be viewed as sufficient grounds to restrict use and those whose job it is to police compliance can therefore be treated with contempt and discourtesy, at best.

I mention this, because at least one of the same user names have turned up here, and the end result may prove to be the same, although it would be nice if it didn't.

Though not usually starting with a first post that, despite its title, had absolutely nothing to do with "using mobiles on planes". :ugh:

Who wants to sit next to someone gibbering on a mobile? Mandatory jail term pls.

I'm a firm believer in not allowing mobile use on planes. I've said as much before.

The reason some think it 'doesn't apply to them' comes from scare mongering that is is dangerous. In my humble opinion it isn't - no plane crashes or accidents linked to phone use is evidence enough of that. Us techie dullards can argue the toss forever, as we do on lots of things ;)

At the end of the day I really don't want everyone shouting into an iphone during the few hours a week of peace I get :)

I sit in the back, and use mine to fly the airplane.

Flying loco into an airfield in mountainous terrain outside cas. Pax adjacent starts playing with blackberry. Ask him to stop and explain why - turned belligerent. Five minutes later we landed and he threatened cabin crew. Flight deck member said discouraged from reporting by company. Reported to relevant authority whose ops inspector accused me of having an axe to grind against loco.
Authority IMHO absolute waste of space - and not just with this loco.

I believe that there are gadgets available to mute phones from a distance ? Be nice to have a low power one to use on ones' seat neighbours when they flout this convention, but I guess it would also mute the aircraft navigation electronics !!! and in any case, it would be regarded as a remote bomb detonator by our ever zealous TSA and their world-wide clones.

Good idea, tho'.

Exsp,

Yes, they used to be legal. It was the cell blockers that were used in museums, symphony halls, movie theaters, and other public places. ACLU took it to court as violation of free speech, and won.

There really is no point. Mobiles will kill you. Jammers will make it better :ugh: Aviation tech cannot be accessed by outsiders. Android or otherwise. I often wonder how some remember to breath.