Whilst on subject of ambiguity...why do so many Auzzie controllers insist on using the word "To" when referring to Alt/FL clearances, and yes..I'm a half Pom!
Thought the danger of that chestnut had been discussed years ago..:E Every country appears to have it's verbal idiosyncrasies! Long live the synchronized Idiot!:D |
No they don`t. Only Brits do, cause they think they are superior in every which way of life.... In fact, some dialects spoken by UK ATC are very, very hard to understand for people not from the UK. Try Scottish control or some of the east enders working in London...(Shanwick?)....horrible. The best in Europe are the Dutch, hands down. AMS in rush hour - thats brilliant ATC for you. BCN is a clusterfcuk and is an accident waiting to happen, its a metaphor for the rest of Spanish ATC, tarring them all with the same brush? yep you betcha. I feel safer flying into Lagos or CDG than I do going into BCN or MAD. |
if nothing else it uses precious radio time. "turn right heading zero two zero" is all you need. do you turn to a flight level? to a speed? what else are you gonna turn to? the extra word 'degrees' is not necessary. if they say reduce to two one zero, does that mean descend to FL 210??? reduce heading to 210 degres? where exactly is the confusion? Well as far as I know, Spanish is an official ICAO language. Whilst an all english enviroment would be desirable, the poor atco might have to speak spanish if spoken to by the pilot ? |
Can't slow to 190 kts?? :ugh:
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Only mystery here is how (like the Lan Chile flameout diverting from MAD to VLC)
When did this happen? |
Only mystery here is how (like the Lan Chile flameout diverting from MAD to VLC) When did this happen? The aircraft [A343] with call sign LAN 705 was performing the flight from Frankfurt to Madrid (EDDF-LEMD). According to the analysis of communications provided by Valencia approach Centre, at 21:06 hours, the aircraft declared emergency due to engine 3 loss, landing uneventful at 21:16 hours. The subsequent analysis of information provided by operator revealed that an auto shutdown of engine 3 was produced due to low fuel flow. The aircraft landed with an amount of fuel 57 Kg below the calculated final reserve fuel." (Source: CIAIAC) |
I too am somewhat wary at AMS and CPH, Both sound very slick and competent and almost always are but are also prone to infrequent foul-ups that can really take the wind out of your sails. I've had a few at both destinations and they can be real shockers - all the more surprising as you just aren't expecting full-scale Lagos moments in N Europe. AMS at low level is where I'm most on guard, and especially so in the final stages of vectoring. Anyone else?
And because this is the internet I suppose I have to add the rider that they are not remotely comparable with Spain, despite the fact that I haven't remotely suggested that they are. |
The subsequent analysis of information provided by operator revealed that an auto shutdown of engine 3 was produced due to low fuel flow. The aircraft landed with an amount of fuel 57 Kg below the calculated final reserve fuel." |
if nothing else it uses precious radio time if they say reduce to two one zero, does that mean descend to FL 210??? reduce heading to 210 degres? where exactly is the confusion e.g. "Dimbo123, descend flight level 120, turn left heading 110 degrees, speed 220 knots when level". Which is far clearer than: "Dimbo123, descend 120, head 110, 220 when level". Or do you disagree? |
Depone, right with you there :ok: if I remember the report on avherald stated that Lan Chile landed with around 2 tons with a final reserve of 2.5 or so ? the problem if I remember is that the fuel was not balanced due to failure to cross-feed at min fuel & the outer one flamed out. Sorry no time to look for the link (must fly) but that is how I remember it.
Curiosity got the better of me, 1300kg in one side 800 in the other , final reserve reqd 2800kg :eek: |
Jeez, some of you know-it-all guys really need to go and spend a day at a busy approach facility and get educated! The Brits only seem good because they sound good (speaking in their mother tongue). The truth is that they cock things up too. Ah but it's easy to lay into the foreigners isn't it.
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@HT
Are you talking about ATCOS or Pilots? |
This event reminds me of a screaming horror of a serious incident about a decade ago at BCN involving an easy 737, lined up to go on 25 as it then was, and a foreign aircraft which landed over the top of it... From hazy recollection, the 'controlladora' lost the plot and cleared the other aircraft to land over the top of the easy, this being the only piece of standard phraseology in several minutes of RTF. Again, use of the local lingo was unhelpful as the non-Spanish speakers had no SA on the Spanish-speaking traffic. The fact that the landing threshold was displaced may have prevented catastrophe, as it provided some miss distance.
I've just tried to find the report on the CIAIAC website, but without joy. Can anyone point to it? |
e.g. "Dimbo123, descend flight level 120, turn left heading 110 degrees, speed 220 knots when level". Which is far clearer than: "Dimbo123, descend 120, head 110, 220 when level". Standard ICAO would be "turn left heading 110". Personally, when I hear the words "turn", "left" & "heading" I don't need the word "degrees" to know this is an instruction to turn the aircraft... For the rest no complaints on the UK ATC :-) |
BCN again...
Had to do a go-around in BCN as well 2 years ago,after landing clearance received and another aircraft was still on runway)))
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Retiring Virgin Capt gets airborne out of Sydney: "Goodbye Sydney, this is my last time here as I am retiring after this flight, I would like you to know that you are the 2nd best ATC in the world."
Sydney ATC: "Thank you Capt, just out of interest who are the best?" Retiring Capt: "All of the rest!!" |
Jeez, some of you know-it-all guys really need to go and spend a day at a busy approach facility and get educated! The Brits only seem good because they sound good (speaking in their mother tongue). The truth is that they cock things up too. Ah but it's easy to lay into the foreigners isn't it. |
That's a bit a silly comparison Better that than the BCN approach to vectoring... |
I've just tried to find the report on the CIAIAC website, but without joy. Can anyone point to it? http://www.fomento.gob.es/NR/rdonlyr...IN_english.PDF Scary. |
10 years later. . . . did it get any better ?
Another somewhat uncomfortable procedure is allowing taxying aircraft from T2 to pass under the 07L approach on their way to 07R. Because of the displaced threshold this is not seen as a "runway crossing" per-se & you find yourself being flown over by other aircraft@ about 150RA (much as in this incident above). Perhaps the procedures were inspired by this incident :D:D (if it worked OK why not :rolleyes: ) The consequences of a long-lansding /overun on 25R are also not considered either when taxying from T2 to 25R crossing the stop-end of 25L with landing traffic. . . . . it is all fine & good, but just sometimes feels a bit "iffy". Haven't yet been cleared to taxy that way with a "heavy" using the longer 25L to take-off, that is one clearance I will refuse, as I don't fancy becoming an aluminium RESA. |
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