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BCN again...

Old 13th Nov 2012, 18:34
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BCN again...

Argentinas A343, Easyjet A319 and Iberia A320 at Barcelona on Nov 12th 2012, loss of separation and TCAS resolution on final approach.

Incident: Argentinas A343, Easyjet A319 and Iberia A320 at Barcelona on Nov 12th 2012, loss of separation and TCAS resolution on final approach


Chilling....
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Old 13th Nov 2012, 18:51
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All the pilots are at fault, everyone knows that Spanish ATC never make mistakes.
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Old 13th Nov 2012, 18:56
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controller on the job training?
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Old 13th Nov 2012, 18:59
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What makes me wonder, why wasn't Iberia number one?
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Old 13th Nov 2012, 19:09
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All spoken in English of course
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Old 13th Nov 2012, 19:19
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que.....?
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Old 13th Nov 2012, 19:27
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Is it unfair to ask if ATCO jobs at BCN, like others, are part of spanish nepotism?
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Old 13th Nov 2012, 19:45
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Before blaming ATC in this case you better learn a little spanish or ask someone to translate properly.
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Old 13th Nov 2012, 19:47
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Get away with your ignorance and learn a little bit of English.
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Old 13th Nov 2012, 20:31
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Last time I was there with CB's around, APP lost the plot completely, becoming severely maxed out & fixated on communicating with one aircraft ,whilst simultaneously forgetting to hand anyone over to tower, or answer other stations. We left him at less than 2 miles & made our own arrangements to get a landing clearance.

I can believe anything here, although in this case the real problem is the failure to establish which aircraft is being followed, so fault on both sides.

LEMG, if you have nothing sensible to say, better to say nothing.

Last edited by captplaystation; 13th Nov 2012 at 20:34.
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Old 13th Nov 2012, 20:51
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Well this is the nice behaviour of some brits i really love it.
At least i can express myself in french , italian and very very little english so as to be able to enjoy your polite comments.
OH i forgot all of then are almost dead languages.
Just rubbish.
Adios Ciao Au revoir
And now call me something one more time.
Take care with the dangerous Spanish ATC
I know sometimes they really are but not this time in my ignorance.
But lets the wise man shed some light ...

captplaystation
I just was only trying to say in my bad english that in this case , after listening the incident, i believe the Argentina is the one who miss the controller instructions so for me 90% fault.
This is my poor opinion.
Sorry for interfering
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Old 13th Nov 2012, 21:20
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Crew should not identify a particular aircraft in this circumstance with TCAS. ATC should not accept the identification.
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Old 13th Nov 2012, 21:47
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TCAS is not a tool for maintaining seperation or for sequencing oneself. I cannot defend an ATCO who allegedly allowed the ARG to do just that.
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Old 13th Nov 2012, 22:00
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As a native English Speaker, I have operated in and out of Spain, and lived in Torremolinos for over six months as the Capt of a VIP jet.

Never had a problem anywere in Europe or Africa...I've said it before, and here it is again...English is the Official Language of Aviation...

However, imagine you are one of the selected few to be an ATCO in a third world country (of which Spain is not one). If you can manage enough English to seperate aircraft by saying "Cleared for Approach, Report over..., who are us English speakers to request "Straight In" or "Visual"?

Stick with the plan, and don't be in a hurry...additionally, we are guests in their country...act accordingly...

Just my opinion...DS/DI3G
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Old 13th Nov 2012, 22:17
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DI3G:
Stick with the plan, and don't be in a hurry...additionally, we are guests in their country...act accordingly...
Actually at that point everyone on the radio should be a member of a team of highly-trained professionals working to make sure the ones in the air live long enough to attain 'guest' status
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Old 13th Nov 2012, 22:18
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In Aviation

"Before blaming ATC in this case you better learn a little spanish or ask someone to translate properly. "

In aviation, where English should be the universal language, why would ATC comms need to be translated? When will the Spanish move to all English comms?
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Old 13th Nov 2012, 22:26
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First of all, the AR flight could have made more effort in getting established. At 6200' you have still plenty of time to get gear and speedbrakes out, configure and dive down. To go around already then is stupid and creating more workload for everybody, including ATC.

Then, trying to follow an aircraft via TCAS... what the Fu.k!

It is clearly the fault of The A340 here.

Yes, I had my share of problems with Spanish atc, but this incident is unfairly blamed on them.

And yes, I am from Northern Europe, but do find the English on this forum mostly arrogant prats who think that they own aviation but in reality have a lot to learn too, just like all of us. By the way, UK ATC phraseology is the absolute worst and most dangerous in Europe, with their non standard wordings.
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Old 13th Nov 2012, 22:29
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Before starting blaming each other it would be wise to : 1) listen to the whole R/T conversation .
2) wait for an preliminary Investigation report .

But being on PPRuNe , if I take this sentence from the news clip :
(effectively downwind), the crew reported they had the Iberia in sight on their TCAS display and offered to visually follow the Iberia, which the controller approved.
.

I could deduct ( speculation )

ATC cleared AR dowwind ,
AR requested to make a visual APP.
ATC should have given him the position/distance of the 2 preceeding ( more speculation from my side ).
AR misindentified the correct a/c based on a TCAS indication and turned base between the 2.
When it got too close TCAS RAs separated both a/c.

Lesson for us all :

Visual is with eyes looking out windows, ...not down into a TCAS dispay.
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Old 13th Nov 2012, 22:47
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By the way, UK ATC phraseology is the absolute worst and most dangerous in Europe, with their non standard wordings.
I'm all for an even debate but c'mon, really? Most people regard UK ATC as being pretty good, if not the best around, and an incident of this nature is highly unlikely to happen at somewhere like LGW.

I've flown into BCN on a number of occasions and APP always seems stretched to the max and late landing clearance (100' on one occasion) is not unusual because of chaotic handovers.
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Old 13th Nov 2012, 22:59
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It's pretty easy to blame the Spanish controllers considering the present climate, however I wouldn't go overboard on the Argentinians either. You can be left in a pretty shit condition in BCN if you don't keep your wits about you. It's easy to be left high and then be slotted in behind slower moving traffic being told to reduce speed when the previous controller requested high speed to accommodate sequencing and height loss. Who's to say the go around wasn't a good idea, however declaring visual based on a TCAS ND presentation is, well I would imagine these guys weren't exactly feeling 'fresh' after their trip across the pond either.

It will be interesting to read the final report. It's been a busy few months for the Spanish authorities.

Last edited by Callsign Kilo; 13th Nov 2012 at 23:02.
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