DeltaConnection carriers file a petition for one list
 

Today, ASA and Comair (the number 2 and 3 largest regional airlines) who are both wholly owned subsidiaries of DAL, Inc. filed a petition for one seniority list with DALPA.
At this time DeltaConnection operates 135 CRJ's, 46 E-120's and 12 ATR-72's. Fleet plans are for 416 CRJ's be 2010 (44, 50, 70, 90+ seats).

ASA&Comair have 2500+ pilots and are hiring 60/month indef. DAL has 9600 pilots, DAL is hiring 75/month indef.

This should be interesting to see.

Good luck to the regional folks in their efforts to merge the lists. Interesting times ahead indeed!.

Interesting indeed......... They want date of hire. I.E. sumthin for nuthin. Hmmm. the 50+ seaters are not even being built yet.

Just a reminder to everyone holding a career position better than someone elses. You are surrounded by assasins who will go to great extremes (including a court room) to get what you have, deserving, or not. Leap frogging to a seat or seniority position that they somehow have been unable to secure on their own. They stand nothing to lose, and everything to gain by employing such tactics.............. Pretty cool huh?

Hmmm, sounds like you are very bitter about something that your airline pilot group allowed to happen in your past. Nobody is looking for a handout or a free ride here.

ASA/Comair have been flying aircraft with way more than 50 seats for a very long time now. They both had firm orders for the 70 seat RJ before Delta mainline bought them out. Delta's scope clause limits their subsidiaries equipment to less than 70 seats and are trying to take their 70 seaters away from them before they get them, thus limiting their careers.

The move for a merger does not imply that they are greedy or are looking for a date of hire merger or anything else for that matter.
It simply sets the ball rolling for talks. The Delta mainline MEC will not give the regional pilots one more red cent than they deserve. Also it will have to benefit all parties involved or it's doubtful that it will happen. So your comment regarding "Leapfrogging assasins" is undefined and undeserved.

Delta management have been pitting all 3 companies against each other and are starting to get the hang of it. This "whipsawing" must stop. This integration of the lists, however it will be agreed upon will benefit all pilot groups involved. They will come out of this with as one big unified voice and one hell of an airline.

For more info see onealpa.com

Regards,

CALPA tried to shove one of these "farm club" deals down Air Canada's throat a couple of years ago, the AC pilots left CALPA and went inhouse to form ACPA. Don't think it will work at Delta...

It's been tried before at American, and Continental has some sort of flow through agreement with Continental Express.

Ironically, some of the Delta mainline pilots got their seniority through their date of hire at Ransome, a commuter that Pan Am bought before it went out of business. ALPA put the Ransome pilots on the Pan Am seniority list before the shutdown, put them on the A-scale and fenced them out of the F/E seat ahead of pilots hired by Pan Am.

CRJ200, fine. Keep your 70 seaters. Keep your pay-rates. Keep your retirement. Keep your work rules. What do you need delta for? Enlighten me. I'm not bitter here a all. I've read on other forums where all the ASA/Comair guys want to "restore" the profession. So,...Do It. Leave DALPA out of it. You're the ones who didn't go on strike, lets hope TSA has the balls to do it. I don't work for Delta so I'm not up to speed on all the details, so sorry about that. Don't like the pay rates? STRIKE!

Being stapled onto the DAL seniority list would be a win/win for all parties. I doubt whether any other form of integration would be entertained by DALPA. One list is a good idea, but first it needs to be feasable.

Not to mention, I don't want to go through my entire career at DAL as "the ASA guy who stole my seniorty"

>>Not to mention, I don't want to go through my entire career at DAL as "the ASA guy who stole my seniorty"<<

What career at DAL? Many of the pilots at the commuters don't meet Delta's (lowered) standards (e.g. college, Baptist, no Corvette <g> ), would Delta have to take every commuter pilot that walked through the door under your imaginary plan? Somehow I don't think that's going to happen.

Apply, interview and come in through the front door...

That is exactly what I am doing, if you look at my post again, you will note that I don't enjoy the idea of going in the back door, especially at a DAL pilot's expense. I would be satisfied with a staple job, which would benefit all parties.

As for not meeting the lowered standards, those are a sliding scale, and have more to do with "who you know" that "what you know." I know this since I have 3 senior Captain writing me a letter just so I can meet those standards, which misteriously move from year to year.

That last thing I want to keep hearing about is how crummy our pilots are....we've yet to kill anyone in more than 22 years due to a pilot error. Even DAL, UAL, AMR, et al can't say that.

And don't tell me they're bigger, we fly many more legs a day!

The vast majority of regional airline pilots in the U.S do have the required credentials for the majors. However getting that elusive interview unless you are from a special interest, affermative action group or connected through your chums at the fighter wing, seems to be a lottery without rhyme or reason. Having said that if AMR, UAL or DAL could get away with paying $50/hour to fly the 777, they would and in a hearbeat too. The first major that makes a realistic, equitable and workable agreement to ensure career progression for its subsidiary regional aircrew will benefit greatly for at least two reasons. Like it or not the regionals are expanding at a greater rate than the big boys, the RJ`s are creating markets that did not exist a few short years ago. Crewing these aircraft is already becoming a problem, the first regional that offers a clear career path will be more attractive to the dwindling suitably qualified pilot supply, thus ensuring their expansion at the expense of the competition. Secondly despite what we may like to believe, airlines are run by the marketing departments. If there is an agreement in place that satisfies the 777 captain down to the TP f/o, then the deployment of the regional fleet can be done without the current act of congress, so to speak and the need to comply with various scope clauses. This would again give a great advantage over the competition. Having said all that appropriate safeguards need to be in place so that when one does progress to that "job at the major," it is still worth having!.

>>That is exactly what I am doing, if you look at my post again, you will note that I don't enjoy the idea of going in the back door, especially at a DAL pilot's expense. I would be satisfied with a staple job, which would benefit all parties.<<

You are asking DAL to hire you without the interview, physical and the rest of the dog and pony show required of the thousands of other applicants. Your imaginary "staple job" would give away the seniority of thousands of Delta pilots hired legitimately in the future. Delta has learned bitter lessons about the "I got mine, pull the ladder up, it doesn't affect me" attitude from the B-scale and the furlough. Once your staple job is done, your or your colleagues will sue to get your commuter date of hire at DAL, it's been done before, regular as clockwork.


>>As for not meeting the lowered standards, those are a sliding scale, and have more to do with "who you know" that "what you know." I know this since I have 3 senior Captain writing me a letter just so I can meet those standards, which misteriously move from year to year.<<

If you're so sure you meet the standards, get an interview, get hired and staple yourself to the bottom of the DAL list like everyone else instead of demanding a handout...

Flt idle, you wrote: "Crewing these aircraft is already becoming a problem". Sounds like an opportunity to me. Its called leverage. Restore the profession. Strike. Focus on what can be done by yourselves, instead of threatening others.

" A wise man will make more opportunity than he finds "

Damn flood gates......

How would you justify the windfall for the others near the bottom of the seniority lists at comair and asa? A Delta seniority number with 1000 hrs TT? Delta is hiring 75-80 pilots a month. In less than 3 years virtually every Comair/asa dude could be there, right?

AirBubba,

You appear confused. I never said I wasn't going to, nor able to get hired the old fashioned way. I am saying that when I do, I still plan to make sure that DAL flies all DAL passengers on DAL airplanes with DAL pilots.

As it is now, ASA and Comair are flying DAL passengers on DAL planes with non-DAL pilots(at 1/3 the pay). Anyone with an education can tell you that over the long term this will have the effect of eroding this profession and reducing it to the LCD (Lease Common Denominator).

Over time DAL management (and congress) will erode scope language and soon all or most of the domestic (ASA/Comair fly to Mexico and Canada already) flying may happen under a different seniority list than that of DALPA. All we need is a slow down in the economy and they will approach DALPA with a concession, for moving some MD-88's or 737 to ASA and Comair, in return for some unsaid promise. Or worse yet, scope will be struck down in the courts and we'll see 777's with ASA on the tail at $130/hr. You say never, well management is patient.

You need to get off your high horse, put your ego aside, and look at the big picture.

This nonsense about how hard it was getting the job is silly. I was hired at ASA with 1100 TT/ 300 Multi. Today they are hiring 300TT 50 Multi time from ERAU.... At DAL the medial changes from time to time. I have 20/15 vision, yet I know of several pilots with less TT than my meager 2500 who were hired at DAL with less than 20/20? I know of pilots hired at DAL with little or no PIC time, so much for selective(ness) & so much for the medical?

In the 60's UAL hired pilots off the street, in the 70's many airlines were hiring 1200hr pilots into 727's. UAL has hired women with less than 500 hrs who are now widebody captains.

As for DAL. Like I said before, is who you know and not what you know....as exemplified by my own situation with my friends at DAL writing me letter of rec, with out them my same self would somehow be "unqualified."

Look past your nose, and look at the next 30 years. Because I have more than 30 years in front of me in this profession and I don't wanted it eroded to the LCD.

ONE AIRLINE / ONE LIST.

PS Who do you fly for? Just curious. You know I'm ASA.

[This message has been edited by DeltaConnector (edited 20 July 2000).]

Scope prevents anything with more that 70 seats being flown by others not on the DAL seniority list. If you show up for a gun fight, at least have a gun. Now are you saying management/congress will impose their will and circumvent the collective bargaining process, thus negating the railway labor act and along the way dropping md-80's and 777's in your lap? At 130$/hr.? Hmmmm. Scabs do work for less. Are you saying this is the future? Sure sounds like it. Why haven't you guys taken a stand and withheld you services? You wouldn't need to be threatening to DAL boys.

Looking past my nose now, with hiring at most majors exceeding 75/month, it doesn't matter who you do or do not know,... be patient. Instead of predicting 130$/777 captain jobs. The ME generation in you is screaming loud and clear.

This thing has already happened at SAS! Unbelievably, it was the mainline union that negotiated it, and made it retroactive, thus backstabbing everyone of their own recent newhires.

Just so were clear here. I don't advocate $130/hr 777 jobs for a regional airline, and for that matter, no one at my company does. But as long as there are seperate pilot lists competing for jobs, the chance of it happening isn't impossible. The issue of Scope, is one which I believe will eventually be struck down in congress, as more and more pressure from the smaller regional airport/city authorities gain congressional clout.

I just want to keep all jobs at DAL, and completely remove the existance of ASA and Comair from the map. These companies are just shells for management to make extra margins on a given investment.

Delta Connector:

Your position seems a bit muddled....
One BIG factor that may throw a wrench into management's plans to undermine mainline contracts with RJ's is a lack of airspace. Think it isn't a problem? Go visit your nearest ARTCC on a wx-cluttered day; they will show you that the RJ's are now causing delays to 777s et al, by occupying airspace previously unused by commuters.
30 pax going 200 miles delay and take a slot for 300 pax going 6000 miles. It makes no sense...
That same RJ, delayed on a gate, delivers 30 pax to spend money in the Terminal franchises; the same gate could deliver 300 spenders.....
The pilot unions, the ATC union, and the airport operators need to get together to stop this nonsense, and ensure that growth continues at the majors, thus providing you, Deltaconnector, with your hard-worked for big-jet career.
Yes, I know that airline managers say a lot of major growth is fuelled by RJ feed.....
I take it with a pinch of salt. Their big prize is destroying our contracts, and they would be prepared to subsidize RJ's at low altitude to achieve that , if necessary.
The RJ's are ONLY profitable because of lower pay scales.....

(I think you meant 'least'). Hmmmm. DALPA has recognized it as an erosion to the profession, Yet, who is willingly doing the flying for 1/3 the $$$$?????? DALPA IS trying to restore the profession.

So merge together AKA AA Eagle, and vote with your feet. Restore the profession. Make your job a 100K plus job. The time has never been better. Pilot demand is out-stripping supply at the regionals LEVERAGE. This really is so simple. Funny, you guys can't manage a strike, yet are willing to burn the whole industry down with this bullsh*t.??

Whenever I hear plans of flowthrough agreements etc, I have to ask this question. " What about the military guys?" Do you feel that if they want a job at Delta, for ex, they would have to get hired at Comair and work their way up? or do you plan on instituting some system where they can bypass the regional pilots and go directly to mainline? I left the Air Force with 4400 hours of C-141 time, would this qualify me to "go direct to mainline?" Not trying to start a fight, just curious what people think?

I am sure that all the Captains at ASA/Comair will love to go to the bottom of the seniority list with the one year probation and the associated paycut. They have no dreams of somehow finding themselves climbing up the ladder based on some list integration sceme. And all those guys right out of college with 50 hours of ME time can just walk into Delta, bypassing the thousands of better qualified applicants who have worked theis butts off to get this far.
Hey boys and girls. Do the UPAS thing, fill out your application, and wait to be called alongside your peers. Just my 2 cents worth.

How does it work at Air Canada? Are the RJ pilots mainline Air Canada? How did it get that way?

>>How does it work at Air Canada? Are the RJ pilots mainline Air Canada? How did it get that way?<<

It doesn't work at Air Canada... CALPA attempted to put the "regionals" on the Air Canada seniority list with retroactive dates of hire (as at SAS). AC pilots took a stand against this nonsense and left CALPA to form ACPA. Many of the AC pilots had left the regionals to join AC, they would have watched their buddies from the commuters come over ahead of them, so they bolted CALPA and kept their list intact.

At least, until now of course, ACPA accepted mediation yesterday to solve issues including merger of the Candian pilots (represented by CALPA) onto their list.

Roc,

Go straight for the Majors. Forget the commuters / Regionals. You have more than enough time to get hired by any Major US Airline. Commuter and Regional jobs are "Entry Level" Positions in Avaition.

Regards

Military pilot with 4400 hrs is atleas the same as civil with 5500 hrs. You can walk right into a major. But this isn't about jobs for pilots at the regionals, as much as it's about erosion of the profession.

Getting $100K for an RJ is a done deal. Comair will get atleast that in their contract, the problem is that as the 416 RJ's DAL orders make their way to ASA/Comair, the average pilot will be making less, by vertue of the fact that the average pilot will fly an RJ and not a 737 or larger.

Anyway, I start a 3 day trip in the morning, I'll catch up with you in 3 days.

Captain Bob,

Thanks for the advice, however, I did go straight to a very good major 6 years ago, and life is good. But back in 1994 when I was looking for a job, I applied to Continental Airlines and was told that I had to apply at CAL Express because at the time they had an integrated seniority list with CAL. Bottom line with a wife and 2 kids, house etc.. and 32years old, I felt I already paid my dues with Uncle Sam and wasnt ready to fly a Beech 1900 for 16,000 a year, so I didnt even consider CAL, and neither did any of my military buddies. I thought it was a bad idea for this reason. I understand CAL has changed this system, but if there are any CAL pilots in Pprune land let us know what you think.

I can see where the commuter pilots would have a lot more enthusiasm for this deal than the Real Deltoids...

From aviationnow.com :


ASA, Comair, Delta Pilots
Ponder Union Merger


by Denise Marois


Pilots at Comair and Atlantic Southeast Airlines, both represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, want their unions to merge with Delta’s ALPA unit to keep management from whipsawing -- when management plays one union group against another. Unions also want to ensure that Delta’s pilot contract does not contain restrictions on regional jet operations that would hurt pilots at Comair and ASA.

About 250 pilots turned up at a rally in Cincinnati yesterday in support of the seniority list merger. Comair ALPA Master Executive Council Chairman J.C. Lawson says a merger of the seniority lists would protect pilot careers at all three airlines. “Any artificial restrictions placed upon an airline by another is not in the spirit of what ALPA is all about,” told the rally. Merging seniority lists would do away with artificial limits on flying for Comair or ASA pilots, Lawson says.

On Tuesday Comair and ASA pilots filed a joint resolution with ALPA International asking for implementation of the union’s merger and fragmentation policy among the three carriers. The resolution notes that pilots at ASA and Comair could lose more than $200 million in pay and benefits over the next five years if proposed changes in the Delta pilot scope clause restricting RJ operations growth go through.

The petition also notes that ALPA is faced with an “irreconcilable conflict of interest” in bargaining for scope protections for Delta pilots and for ASA and Comair pilots. It is “inappropriate for ALPA to support any scope language that would harm ASA and compare pilots to the benefit of the mainline Delta pilots,” the petition adds. ALPA spokesman John Mazor had not yet seen the petition as of yesterday.

The push to merge comes as Delta’s ALPA negotiates a contract that likely will include tighter limits on RJ expansion. Lawson said that with separate contracts, Delta is free to work one pilot group against another. “With one corporate owner and three contracts, it does not give ALPA the clout to deal with one pilot group and one contract,” Lawson notes. All those conflicts "disappear if we are merged as one pilot group,” he adds

Just to clarify my earlier thread....

Whilst I sympathise and admire the enthusiasm of ALL the pilots who wish to move from the regionals to the majors, the relaxation of Scope would be nothing short of a DISASTER for their careers, and could conceivably immediatly reduce hiring at the majors.
DeltaConnector: I think you understand that, but I can also see the point of your collegues who, for whatever reason, wish to remain at the regionals....Scope does not help them any.

Representation of both regional and major carrier pilots by the same union is nothing more than conflict of interest and actually provides management with additional ammunition for use in the ongoing war against the scope clause. It would be better for the continued health of the industry (read pay and working conditions for pilots) if regional flight crews regardless of the logo painted on the aircraft were represented by a different union to that at the mainline. It would be a disaster to drag down mainline working conditions in order to bump up pay at the regionals, yet this is what will happen unless a strong scope clause stays in place and a sharp distinction is made between the regional and mainline elements of the combined operation.

I have flown commuter aircraft providing hub feed for a major airline with the associated logo painted on my shorthaul spamcan . This did not and should not entitle me to any flow through nor merging of seniority lists. Those seeking employment with the mainline for the enhanced pay and conditions on offer should fill out an application form and subsequently undergo the interview process where they may or may not be successful in securing a place for themselves at the bottom of the seniority list.

Last but not least, remember that the mainline has much to offer simply because the pilot group is prepared to and probably has been on strike to achieve a desirable employment package. I fail to recall when the last regional group walked out of the flight deck and took to the picket lines.

Just a thought...How would this be handled if ASA/Comair bought out DAL???-CY

------------------
*deep inhale* I LOVE the smell of jet-a in the morning..

(I excerpted this from my own previous thread):

Having just spoken with a Delta 737 captain, I highly doubt the Delta pilots would allow any sort of "date-of-hire" integration of seniority lists. In fact, this pilot seemed very upset at the regional pilots and their apparent over-exuberance (super confidence).

To quote him verbatim: "They'll have to pry the gun away from my cold, dead hand before I let any regional pilot jump ahead of me in line after how hard I have worked to get here!"

He claimed that the Delta pilots would likely quit ALPA before they allowed that type of integration.

I know that Delta's management will most likely use one pilot group against the other(the so-called "whipsaw"), but that is almost commonplace nowadays. American and Continental do the same with their regional feeders. Why should the Delta regional carriers expect any different?

I acknowledge that many of the regional pilots are highly skilled and professional, but do they really think Delta pilots are going to stand by and allow their list to be "infiltrated" by so-called "backdoor bandits" - quoting yet another Delta pilot. My bet is that the Delta pilots will quit ALPA before they allow that to happen.

Any of the ASA or Comair pilots think the Delta pilots will rollover or cede to your integration ideas? Any thoughts?

------------------
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed pilot is king!

>>He claimed that the Delta pilots would likely quit ALPA before they allowed that type of integration.<<

Not entirely far fetched, this is what happened at Air Canada with CALPA...

DALPA offeded a flow-through, and DeltaConnection said no. What do you all think about "Flow-through?"

Any EAGLE or COEX types for comment?

I really don't intend to offend anyone here, but why such a huge controversy concerning flowthrough or integration? Why not try to raise your pay scales at ASA/Comair to a suitable level through your union. This whole flowthrough idea leaves a bad taste in my mouth. As a military pilot can I jump ahead of ASA/Comair and go directly to mainline? if YES, than wouldn'tASA and Comair pilots resent this? If NO, than how would Delta's mgmt feel about the loss of any chance of hiring highly skilled military pilots, especially given Delta's history of hiring only military types in the not to distant past. Bottom line, I always say the aviation business is alot like sports, you dont make the big bucks till you make it to the big leagues, whether its fair or not, but ASA/Comair are trying to say if they make it to the Yankee's single A farm team, they should be guarenteed a shot at the majors cause their in the Yankee org. I don't think that will ever fly.

In many countries, like France where a personal friend of mine was hired as an AirBus FO with some 400TT they also hire military pilots with much more time.
So this isn't about where you learn to fly, skill is not a given for military, anymore than personality (a key in hiring pilots).
At ASA we have F-15 pilots (retired) F-16, F-18, etc....as well has military propdrivers, we have a lot of helocopter guys who needed fixed wing time, so it's not all about "experienc" 2000hrs of 121 experience at a regional airline is enough for anyone to take the right seat on a MD80.

As for bringing wages up at the regionals, this is a difficult process since the various mediations boards are always going to see them as "training grounds, and stepping stones to the majors." which to a degree they are. So with that said, the managements of the various airlines have the ability to grow these "regional" airlines and keep the overall level of wages down.

It's not as simple as just going on strike, the NMB would send you back to work with a 5% raise!

I say give us a good flow through(with no loopholes), and hire some from with in the regional and some from outside (50/50 ratio) and when hiring is slow, then hire them all at the regional.

This is just one perspective, and I have nothing against regionals operating certain numbers of jets (i.e. 69 seats or less etc.). I have not been with regionals since the mid-80s, and sympathize with those regional pilots who desire to fly a jet someday, whether grey with a red tail, or red, white, blue or even silver...and finally earn more respect from the smug, ill-mannered (this often includes the successful-), ignorant passengers who lack any solid appreciation for the reliability/efficiency of 'prop-jets'. And when did any line pilot, who is not a negotiator or mgmt/evaluation pilot, have control over which aircraft is acquired by his employer?

As for hiring at the majors, where things have changed since the booming mid-80s, and were always difficult to stereotype or understand, i.e. some personnel (human resource) managers, with no flight training OR experience (except with silk ties and brown-nosing) were allowed to 'weed out' a guy or gal, simply based on some subjective personal reason, having absolutely nothing to do with flying abilities/experience.

Recently on Pprune, regarding necessary PIC turbine hours, someone posted info from United Airlines' recent flight experience requirements, which stated that the computer accepting data from pilot applications did NOT distinguish between turboprop and turbofan PIC hours. And so, IF this is also the case with other US major airlines' pilot requirements (other than where personal recomendations are an advantage), then the assumed advantage of flying a regional jet as Captain versus a Beech 1900, EMB-120 or ATR means nothing, as far as numbers go. The regional jet job might be used on turboprop routes.

Or, as at Delta, where their MEC (and its flock of sheep, mostly in ATL, who drank the company kool-aid without question) finally woke up to the sobering fact that their previous contracts had the loosest scope language in the US industry, in theory some COMAIR pilots probably won't get hired at Delta, since the CRJ already flies many previous Delta 737/MD-80 routes. Maybe they will be fortunate at other majors, partly thanks to tighter scope language.

Fighting yesterday's battle today can never recover those who have already been lost.

[This message has been edited by Ignition Override (edited 28 July 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Ignition Override (edited 28 July 2000).]

Amen brother.

Delta Connector
I've seen things go deep into left field, but this one takes the cake. Anything to substantiate your claim? http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif :rolleyes:

My, Flathatter. You´re back. Thought that you had changed your name!!
F.Y.I. Mainline union has always included rep´s from the Commuter dept. And I haven´t met anyone, apart from the "famous few" pilots, that don´t agree with the deal!
"Backstabbing everyone"" is NOT what everyone thinks that happened. You know so much about what happens at SAS, so you must be.... nooooe, not with what you said on the other thread. A rejected SC maybe?... noooee. What then.
To the rest of you, sorry that I hijacked the thread for a while, just letting you know that there are ways to "merge" lists, where 99% are happy. The last 1% will bitch no matter what happens!!