Air India bashing - gone too far?
 

From this morning's Ney York Times:

When Bob Haygooni paid a midflight visit to a cockpit at his new employer, Air India, he was shocked. The pilots, he said, had completely covered the windows with newspaper to keep out the sun.
“All you had in the cockpit was this yellowish glow, as the light permeated the newspaper,” Mr. Haygooni recalled, saying it was a visibility hazard he had never seen before in 30 years of flying.

But “this was a normal thing at Air India,” said Mr. Haygooni, a former United Airlines pilot who flew for the Indian airline for 16 months.

"Visibility Hazard"??? I assume "midflight" means they were at cruising level, IFR, NOT VFR. Don't know about you, but when that big fire ball shines through the windows with very little atmosphere to filter it, I block it with whatever I have, turn on WX radar and peek out from time to time. I am also not aware of any requirement to be on the lookout while flying IFR. I love my job, but skin cancer was not part of my deal.
As for Air India, I guess they have their plate full without this dramatization.

Amos, you must be working for Air India or something?
Have you haver heard of "see and avoid"? Also when flying IFR you have the direct responsibility to watch out for other traffic.
And what does skincancer have to do with this? If the sun is low over the horizon, its rays actually travel further through our protective atmosphere....:ugh:

1. You can not see traffic directly into sun - well not unless you are wearing an arc welding helmet.
2. Dazzle caused by the sun reduces the ability to see traffic removed from the glare ball.
3. I have flown for the RAF and three world majors. In all of these it was common and accepted practice to place a map or other obstruction over the window in line with the sun. You ain't goin' to see anything there anyway.

p.s. It is, of course, up to the ol' man whether you use this technique or not :ok:

Call me old fashioned... but I like to see the other aircraft that's has penetrated my threat protection area:{.

I don't know, but I think that frantically tearing down newspapers from the wind screens may prove to be rather fatal... but that's just me.

There is a difference between:

-Placing a map or other obstruction over the window in line with the sun. :ok:

And

-Completely covering the windows with newspaper to keep out the sun. :confused:

"Air India bashing - gone too far?"

Answer - Not nearly far enough by the sounds of it.

Not just confined to a third world carrier. If anyone has a copy of this months Airliner World, turn to page 37. One very large US carrier with both windscreens partially blocked during a landing. I'm assuming its not a practice autoland. Now I know flying into Sun is a pain, but I have never seen anyone obstruct the screen during landing.

There is a difference between an old Jep map shading a bit on the left side window when sitting for 10 hrs with the sun at 10 o´clock and the widespread Indian culture of covering all cockpit windows completely, effectively turning the old bird into an airborne submarine.
I have come into the cockpit of one flight while in the hold into LHR in the middle of rush hour where you could see nothing outside!

Yes, I know: IFR, TCAS, God watching over you etc., but having experienced 4 actual near misses which required avoidance maneuvering, this culture makes my p..s freeze.

Recently had a Turbulev climbing straight through my level at 12 o´clock - no TCAS.

Appalled to learn that the complacency is not confined to the sub-continent....

seat 0A:

I have nothing to do with Air India. However, I do have a lot of experience flying into the sun (and not only when it's "low over the horizon"). "See and avoid"? Give me a break. Must be flying Cesnas for too long. In modern radar controlled airspace, with TCAS II, you really don't need to be on a "lookout" through the windows - you will be better off looking at your ND for potential traffic hazards and peek outside ONLY when a potential conflict is near. I don't remember ATC requiring different separation when I'm in clouds or at night. On the other hand, read the statistics about pilots getting skin cancer, and you'll figure out what skin cancer has to do with it.

I may put forward an educated guess here that the skin cancer rate in pilots is rather due to the increased amount of cosmic radiation (high energy gamma rays) rather than the UV light which is filtered out by first the actual windshield and than by the cool pilot's sunglasses...

As a SLF I rather prefer to fly in a plane where the pilots are able to quickly look up and see whats coming than as someone phrased it "flying submarine" or grandma's coffee parlor in the garden...

amos, from the lofty heights of your pedestal can you recall the first rule of airmanship?

Second question, why do you have windows?

So, you never fly in IMC because you cannot see and avoid?

Don't you know it's rude to answer a question with a question?

You can see and avoid in IMC. Up to 8 kilometers in fact.

Yes, but it sometimes can be alot less than 8Km, in my limited experience.

What do you do when you find yourself in clouds, with very limited visibility?

Isn't it a difference if you are in low visibility conditions as they just occur or you voluntary create them. If you have a choice do you avoid low visibility or do you fly right into it (Yay)?

Of course, but in my experience you rarely, if ever, spend the entire cruise in cloud with limited visibility.

To artificially subject yourself to zero visibility is a bit daft.

Would you agree that the longer you spend not being able to see outside the chances of you twonking something are increased?

You can rely on TCAS and Radar all you like, they aren't infallible or 100% reliable. Uberlingen springs to mind.

What would you do if you were in the cruise and you had an RA out of the blue (which does happen)? Follow the TCAS commands and attempt to locate the other aircraft visually. You can't do both if you've got charts all over the place.

When I started learning aviation (still learning) the first rule of airman ship was and still is, is lookout!! How the hell can you conduct a lookout with the windscreen covered in newspapers??

Keeping out the sun I suspect is a pigmentation issue with the indigenous at AI, rather than anything else.

Moral of the story: pay your pilots well enough, so they can afford decent sunglasses.

A Boeing report also made it very clear to Air India that the covering of the flight deck windows in flight like this was not acceptable... That is at least 3 years old now... So nothing has changed.


PT6A

Or spend the money on a Basic Airmanship Course :ok:. Just make sure they attend and do not forge the attendance sheet :E

That is pretty much my view on the subject. When flying in the direction where the sun was shinning directly into the cockpit at high altitude cruise FLs, I always folded a map or some other type of sun blocking material between the sun and my eyes.

Not to cover all the windscreens in the entire cockpit. I see no reason for that.

Really. 8 kilometers is about 5 miles. So, you are saying that with two aircraft while IMC, a pilot on one can see, recognize, realize a possible conflict, then disconnect the auto-pilot and maneuver to avoid the other aircraft with a closure rate of nearly 800 to 900 mph with just five miles distance? I don't think so.

Besides that, why are you looking out of the window instead of monitoring the flight instruments while IMC?

Actually the 8 Km reference is the definition of IMC maximum visibility.

Anyway, at 900kts closure you're going to be pretty much head on and the chances of acquiring an aircraft are slim. However, you've still got about 20 seconds to react accordingly, if you can acquire the other aircraft, which is plenty of time, unless of course age has dulled your reactions.

What about traffic on a converging course? Or climbing and descending through your level? Not bothered by those?

At no point did I say I just sat there looking out of the window.

You're retired now but I'm sure you can remember such a thing called a scan? Or did you just sit there with you thumb up your bum glued to your AH? You had windows for a reason didn't you.

Grimmrad - skin cancer is more likely from life style. UV's, not ionizing protons, creates skin cancer. UVA protective shirts, sunscreen, or at least long sleeve shirts, for skin cancer protection.

For the sake of argument and in the spirit of some of the views put forward here, it would appear equally acceptable to some people to fly in the cruise without navigation lights or anti collision lights ......:eek:

Jack

Small part of the report as included in Air India's own ops circular.
 

misd-again: That was exactly my argument. The sun up there won't do it as it is filtered. If anything causes harm on pilots during cruise it's the cosmic rays. BTW, Melanoma is associated with UV, other forms of skin cancer not necessarily.

Lookes
 

You find it very common in Asia that the Windows are covered with Papers and Maps to protect against everything from outside. In my opinion some of the "Pilots" are sitting far too low and hide under the glareshield.

Remember many years back the midair collission in Indian Airspace, maybe a good lookout would have prevented it, who knows. With the attitude "I am IFR" and I do not have to lookout, or I have TCAS and that alarms me, I am somehow shocked that there is no sensibility for wrongdoing..... or at least too complacent and that opens the gate for incidents and, God forbid, for accidents.

I am happy to be old fashioned and look outside what the world has to offer.

Fly safe and land happy

NG

It is a while I made a contribution to PPrune.

It is 0300 local here.

Can't sleep.

Sleeping damage from 30 years of jetlagging around the globe for a major.
Retired 3 Years ago.

Here is a discussion You can't win from people who have no idea how it is to make a quick dash from Europe to the US and after 20 hours or so start the return flight. Already tired and drained because Your body it is already past midnight. MAYBE You were able to sleep one or two hours before calling. MAYBE.
Or a loooong flight into awakening Asia.

The next hours the fight is on.
Coffee.
Jokes.
Chief Pilot.
Solving world problems.
Chats with anything that pops up in the cockpit.

Then the horizon starts to glow, trouble brewing. The upcoming rays hack at Your last barriers. Your eyes hurt, You start to feel irritated, miserable.
These were the times I really HATED the sun, my job, everything.
And still HOURS away from homebase. Every minute seemed to take an hour to tick by.

I, like everyone else covered the sun spot with scrap paper. Not that You could see anything around it. At least You were not so blinded that You could still see a bit outside and Your eyes did not need seconds to adapt to see the instruments.

I never flew military planes but I could have written the nr 1 rule for fighter jocks, that is to attack with the sunrays looking INTO Your afterburner.

We don't live in a perfect world and airliners are not perfect, sunshades are even worse. Maybe in future we (read: my successors) will get intelligent windscreens that adapt to circumstances and block the sun.

For those SLF who read these kinda posts: You are doing this by Your own choice and don't start to complain if You read things You don't want to know about a service we provide for You.

Suppose there is a PPrune for topclass kitchen chefs and there was a post called: What do YOU do with a perfect cooked steak that slips out of Your frying pan on the ground

I don't wanna know.

Nor do I look into forums (if there are any) for heart surgeons.

As with many other professions there are areas only insiders can understand.

But be sure all pilots want to reach their retirement age in 1 piece, that is about the best insurance You can get for a safe flight, but sometimes we have to make the best choice out of a lot bad options.
Putting that decision under a newspaper's microscope is not playing level with pilots.

The into-sun morning flights are the ones I try to remember whenever I have a bout of longing back for my previous life. If it is not strong enough I sit up and look for 10 minutes straight into my desktop reading light, like I do now. That solves all these stupid thoughts...


Hmm, is that me who's snoring? 03.50 now....

I don't have a problem with covering up the #2 or #3 windows in (Oceanic/Polar or otherwise Remote) cruise, but I wouldn't cover the #1 windows unless the plane is parked.

Man, they wouldn't like me at all.

At the end of the day the regs are clear. See and avoid is the legal method to avoid mid-air collisions.
How can you even attempt that with all windows covered up?

Whilst not the only airline guilty of this violation, it doesn't make it acceptable.

Especially in the crowded skies of India.

I love my job, but skin cancer was not part of my deal.

Interesting perspective but....

Ticked that box.
Also ticked the tinnitus - one ear.
Malaria -twice.
Salmonella many times.
Lung infection - probably TB.
Solar radiation on polar route - lost two colleagues from brain cancer.
Migraine was normal on the very long trans-atlantic flights.

Imodium was standard operating equipment.

Venereal disease was the only one down to personnel choice ;)

Sonny Hammond:
Just to clear things up, traffic avoidance maneuvers or Resolution Advisories are carried out solely on the basis of looking at your Primary flight display and following the Green band on your V/S indicator. If you make the mistake of looking outside at that point, you're all toast. A traffic advisory which signifies potentially conflicting a/c in your vicinity requires you to look outside and visually locate the traffic, but does not require you to take any evasive action.

Friend of mine was undergoing a simulator assessment on the A320 before being formally inducted into an Indonesian LLC based at Jakarta. The simulator view was set for CAVOK and the Indonesian check pilot gave him take off clearance and make left turn. The pilot under test took off and instinctively glanced over his left shoulder just before commencing the left turn. The instructor `froze` the simulator and in a belligerent manner demanded why the pilot had looked outside before the turn.

The pilot said as it was a visual departure he instinctively looked outside to check for visual traffic before turning.

The instructor replied that "you never look outside when flying the Airbus - you trust the TCAS".

Oh yeah? But of course that's Indonesia...

Oh yes. VFR on instruments.:ugh:

CBs
 

Whilst traffic avoidance is important of much more importance is CB avoidance esp since the tops can be dry and offer few radar returns. At night even when there is a little ambient light I look out as well as dipping the wx radar to look at the bottom levels of the clouds. IMHO completely covering the windows is extremely foolish.

I would've trusted my fist to beat some sense into him.

What a load of nonsense. I've posted it before but it specifically states in my Ops manual that you must follow the RA correctly AND attempt to acquire the threat visually.

So, we have two pilots. One is flying the aircraft in response to the RA. What do you think the other one is doing, specifically?

I mean, if it's not too much bother maybe you could take a look outside or are you happy to just be a useless passenger at this point?!

Take the case, again, of Uberlingen. Maybe a turn away from the threat would have been possible if visual contact had been established. Or, if you could see that the evasive maneuver wasn't working then you could do something about it. Blindly following your TCAS isn't necessarily the best thing to do.

Blind pew,

I had two Euro sized skin parts removed, basal cell carcinoma. One on my temple.
My then excellent vision lost quite a few points when using pills against malaria, I forgot the name. Later this side effect (and some more) caused a swap in the company to some other brand.
The last few years of my career I was diagnosed with atrium fibrillation. No one in my whole family has heart problems.
My disturbed sleeping pattern.

For the rest Your list looks quite the same as mine, slips in New Delhi were crews seldom without anyone losing it to the "Delli Belli" as we called it. Imodium by the truckload.

OK, nearly every job has its effects on health, but ours is sometimes hidden (yet). Airlines are not too cooperative to comply with in depth studies.
As far as I know studies into the risk of radiation into cockpits is difficult as not all agree on what rays and to what level are considered dangerous over accumulated exposure.

There might come a day all medical risks of flying in our cockpits will be well documented, but airlines will NOT be amused. That's for sure.

But requiring people to look straight into a rising sun w/o letting them protect their eyes is like ordering people to drive with max headlights because the oncoming driver should be able to deal with that.
Get a life guys or keep on staring at the books that know it all soooo well.

Double Back great post :ok:i totally relate to those mornings when the sun just " scorch " your eyes as if acid was splashed directly into them, for those supermen who thinks at flight levels if another aircraft is coming directly at you at a closing rate of over 1900km/hr and you can avoid it, especially when the sun is in your eyes even with the best sunglasses you really are living in coo coo land.

Spandex - what a load of tripe - :ugh:since you brought up uberlingen one of the recommendations out of that very unfortunate accident :(is to always trust your TCAS, if both planes did, that day would not be another satistic.