11 September 1990
Qantas Boeing 747 with 360 aboard missed a USAF C-5 Galaxy plane by a reported 17 metres, while flying over Phuket. The case raised air traffic control clearance issues.

Well, how about the other 'Jockey' not following his RA or manuevering in opposition to it? Yeah, yeah we've all been trained to react properly to TCAS and disregard ATC but that hasn't always worked has it? It's happened before and it will happen again. The only way to avoid a smash in that situation is to use your eyes.

I'm not talking about prioritising threats or ignoring TCAS but looking out of the window and using your brain.

Unhooked,
Tell that to the other guy.

As, I hope, you are aware TCAS will react to his non-compliance and adjust the demands on you to avoid the collision. TCAS will also pick up his movement before you could visually. Remember TCAS 'negotiates' escape manoeuvres between conflicting traffic, something you couldn't do.

Your eyes and information-processing are considerably more fallible and slower than TCAS in recognising and avoiding collisions.

I think we are trying to.:)

TCAS can only negotiate if there is a TCAS working in the other aircraft. Up to 10 days without is perfectly legal and quite often done. Not to mention state aircraft that do not have to conform to usual equipment standards, or all those nice little aircraft that do not need to have TCAS because they are too small and have a general exemption, yet still fly at the same flight levels we do.

There are lots of very valid reasons to keep a good outlook throughout your flight, not to mention it is required by most legislations as well.

Of course, but occasionally the RA isn't enough to remove you from the conflict no matter how accurately you follow it. Ever been pinged by fast jets? Or by a guy who has reacted in the opposite sense(That's the guy I'm on about by the way)?

There was a 'Guy' at my old airline who "was confused by the symbology" and didn't do as he should have. They got within feet of the other aeroplane who was following his RA but then had to maneuver himself away from the collision, not in contradiction to the RA but laterally at the same time.

Remember I am not advocating not following an RA but when that isn't enough then your last line of defence is your eyes.

There seems to be some confusion with 'see and avoid', the legal requirement to maintain a lookout and then TCAS.
TCAS and its operational procedures are what they are.

The regulatory requirement to maintain a lookout and additionally see and avoid is a stand alone issue separate to TCAS.

Arguing that TCAS relieves the pilots requirement to maintain a lookout is a severely flawed logic.

Answer me this, what if the other a/c transponder fails?

Swiss cheese anyone?

Additionally,

TCAS is designed to improve safety. Not replace existing safety mechanisms, like see and avoid.

You blokes who cover up cockpit windows and other similar behavior are simply reducing safety margins that have been hard fought for at the cost of the lives of many.

Sack up, be professional and if you have fair skin, try sunscreen.

The original culprits would not have had fair skin and were probably worried it may become darker, that's my take on it. Seen it time and time again down there.

Not racist, just stating facts.

India is the largest importer of shell we say, "cosmetic skin care products" in the world, for both sexes.

making a racist statement and saying that you are not does not make it better.:mad:

Am sure you have lots of time on hand to read someplace that India is the largest importer of "shell" we say cosmetic skin products but none to spell check.

Hello beeps

Didn't take long did it? Ha ha!

I don't recall mentioning any race. All I mentioned was skin pigmentation. Sonny mentioned pigmentation on the post previous to mine and nobody has yet waded in to attack him.

People do want to change the pigmentation of their skin. "SHALL" we take the Northern Europeans who take a holiday and lay in the sun for weeks on end, for example. It is to get a sun tan! So you going to call me a racist again for mentioning skin color??

BTW., the "cosmetic skin care products" to which I refer are nearly as bad by causing skin cancer, as the sun

Every other advert on TV in the Sub-continent is about skin pigmentation products. Just the facts, and nothing but the facts.

Sad there are people on this forum who can never hold level headed discussions without having some bigoted notion about others, while there exists alot of intelligent posters on this forum who actually share useful information and discussions, PPRune is slowly degenerating into a rubble rowsing forum. Last i checked there are lots of ads in the western media on skin care products as well and all that anti ageing creams but whats that got to do with whats being discussed.
I conquer with beeps, people who deliberately post bigotted coments just so they can get a response, and theyll mostly end their posts with somethin on lines of......"not being racist" or "how long since they start crying racism",
If you got nothing meaningful to share let the thread continue without degenerating into some sort of misplaced rhetoric.

Just trying to provide constructive input as to why a pack of clowns, who keep referring to themselves as captains, would want to fly around with the cockpit windows covered with news paper.

This is still going on, in spite of the manufactures recommendations, company Sop's, common sense, airman ship (or lake of) and the rest of it...

You got a better suggestion?

Are you talking about boats now? Lots of nasty reflections from the water, you should really put sun cream on......:rolleyes:

And the pack of clowns fronting for captains blockin cockpit windows must be from the "not fair skin side", yet on this same thread there was a reference of a major US carrier pictured on Airliners with its windows blocked, but Alas its gota be the other side.
Get Real, some things that pilots do are not unique to specific corners of the globe and that's the reason why theres a debate whether or not it is perilious to cover your windows, but obviously some narrow minded people have to always get an angle to even the most mundane of topics.

Friend of mine went for an assessment trip in the A320 simulator in Indonesia. Instructor had visual scene set to good visibility and no cloud and cleared for take off make left turn.

The captain under test glanced over his left shoulder just prior to initiating the turn. Immediately the Indonesian check pilot in the simulator demanded to know why the pilot looked outside before the turn. The pilot replied it was an instinctive check to make sure all clear since it was a visual departure.

The instructor got angry and said that pilots should never look outside in the A320 because the TCAS is always to be trusted.

Somehow, somewhere, this thread took some a wrong turns.
...getting back on track:
1) If you want to keep a constant lookout at FL370 with the sun in your eyes, for 6-7 hours straight, suit yourself. :8
2) If you think that a constant lookout without any potential threats on TCAS will EVER get you out of trouble, dream on. Why? 'cause there is no way you will be able to acquire and identify a true threat, let alone execute an avoidance maneuver at closing speeds of 1.8 mach. And what about during nighttime? Do you suggest that night flying is more hazardous due to the reduced ability to identify and avoid collision threats visually? News to me.
3) Block just enough of the sun to keep it from your face, no one advocates covering all windows.
4) ALWAYS follow TCAS RA's, NEVER := be creative about it. period.
5) If the other guy doesn't have TCAS or his system failed, AND he's in the wrong place at the wrong altitude, well, god help you. Your eyes certainly won't.

All well and good of course.

Not so long ago, I was a crew member on an oceanic crossing with an ex senior Captain from a "flag carrier", third world, who was occupying the RHS. Broad daylight and there had been Cb's in the area.. He had his eyes glued to the WX radar. As he was the PF, he requested me to obtain a clearance off track to avoid. I asked him why. He replied there was a cb ahead. I suggested to him that he remove his windscreen screen (albeit, semitransparent) and have a look outside. He did and there was no wx ahead, except an island.

Taking wx alone, you cant beat the mark one eye ball, day and night, as I have seen"experts" get it wrong without verification, of visual or radar backup.

I suspect you may have aimed that at me. Do you have a problem reading English? Nobody has suggested flying out of an RA visually.

Amos
So that's it then? TCAS hasn't worked so you'll just give up. You won't bother looking out and avoiding a collision yourself. Technology has failed you so you think it's ok to fail your passengers. All you have to do is look and react.

Have you two ever seen Withnail and I? You are coming across, to me, as equals to Monty.

Japan Air Prox