RYR taxi with towbar in LPL
 

Strange incident in LPL yesterday, where a RYR 737 taxi's away before the towbar is pulled clear of the aircraft. From what appears happens, the groundcrew 'forgot' it was there and the crew didnt confirm it was clear.

It ended up being tangled with the main gear and the fire crews having to cut it free!!

Lots of questions for the crew and groundcrew, but is it not SOP to complete the after start checklists and then ask for taxi AFTER the tug, towbar and man is clear of the aircraft?

Questions all round I'd say!

Of course it is SOP to confirm tug and tow bar are disconnected before completing the after start checks and then taxiing.

By being pushed all the time by short turn around , time pressure etc...something like that had to happen and will probably happen again.

I remember also one dispatcher loosing his job due to a headset forgotten on the front wheel doors and banging on the fuselage once airborne...

I hope the crew will not have to pay too much for that

You cannot see the towbar from the cockpit. Either you get a signal that all is clear or you don't taxi. On balance I find it hard to imagine the ground crew forgetting the towbar is still attached and giving the signal. Still anything is possible.

True, but you can watch the tug drive away, and check if it has a towbar attached!

"Man, pin, tug, towbar, after start check list please". in an ideal world.

Mind you, there but for the grace of god.............

I've never heard a Captain not ask if the tug and town bar are disconnected or groundcrews not confirming the same, but plenty of CRM studies show that people doing repetitive tasks can go through the motions and confirm completion of a task without actually engaging brain. :uhoh:

It's more insidious than that.

The eye does not actually see everything in detail and it makes a construct if what it expects to be there.

Normally, things work out, but I can accept that someone could 'see' no tow bar in place :ouch:

This is not from the world of psycho babble, but is hard science.

This should't happen, but still does.. all the time and at all airlines.
Now here they taxi out with the towbar connected, more often it is the engineer that is still there, much more dangerous (especially with a 737).
Could have been far worse.

When we do departures, our procedure is to show that we have removed the steering pin. {As most, no doubt are} But I have to say, sometimes getting the flight crews attention is sometimes hard as they are completing their pre taxi checks and are often looking down. So I would imagine, that some dont even look to see where the tug or tow bar are. If we sign off on the headset and say our courtesy good-byes, I would say thats good enough for the drivers.
I think this sounds like, as all us aviation profesionals know, all the holes in the swiss cheese lined up!! Just an unlucky mistake.

It's not tricky to watch out of the window to ensure that all ground equipment and personnel are clear. Even if the ground crew gave some sort of signal the Captain should see that the bar hadn't been removed!

Rushing = Reports!

" It ended up being tangled with the main gear and the fire crews having to cut it free "

Did it indeed ?. The 737 tow bar is hardly a small piece of kit and, if correct, would suggest it was clearly disconnected and ready to be re-connected to the other large bit of kit, the tug..which is clearly visible ( usually) from the flight deck. Given the distance from the nose to the main gear, how it ended up embedded in the latter to the extent it had to be cut free ( as stated here ) is "interesting" to say the least.

More questions than answers ( as always ) and the official report will no doubt make equally interesting reading as should the human factors aspect.

Having been a dispatch for 7 years in a previous life I do not know how many times flight deck have tried to run me over! Sabena, Spanair , Eurofly, to name just a few of the feckers! Now seeing things for the last 7 years from the flight deck I can honestly say that this is just down to complete disregard for SOP's. TUG, TOWBAR, MAN WITH A PIN. After start x-list. :ugh:

Rushing = Reports!
 

In these multi sector, 25 minute turnaround days, things like this are going to happen. Starting the engines while the PNF is doing a before start cx list (that'll be a hot start and a blown engine then!) , taxi clearance to get ahead of the 4 other aircraft on pushback without even completing engine start or the cx list. And with this happening, it's very easy to lose the SOP sequence and miss something vital........

:= It's up to the Captain primarily to set an example for this reason.

Was it:

• day or night
• raining
• training flight
• ontime
• headset used
• how many in pushback crew
• was any a trainee

More information about mitigating circumstances please

Time from cadet to command in RYR - 3000 hours , or just about 3 years.....

Maybe nothing to do with it in this case, but a lot of the guys in the LHS are still relatively inexperienced in all aspects of the operation .....

There is no quick substitute for experience, airmanship etc, it is simply a factor of time, no matter how well one jumps through the hoops etc.

I rest my case !

The tow bar was disconnected and left in front of the aircraft, both groundcrew thinking the other had secured it to the tug.

The aircraft then taxied from stand 9 for about 100 metres before grinding to a halt, disembarking the passengers and having the fire crews do their bit.

Now whether the short cuts were taken by the flight deck remains to be seen. If they taxied too early, didnt wait for signals etc, that is pure conjecture. But I'd of thought that as soon as you move such a hefty bit of kit would be immediately noticed. It must of needed a fistful of power!!!!

If SOP was followed i.e TUG, TOWBAR, MAN WITH PIN none of the above matters.

Was it: Friday 13....

Seriously, so often (in every company) the flipping headset doesn't flipping work as no-one will spend the flipping money. So hand signals, confusion, and the lining up of holes.

Sounds like no injury and no damage so hopefully nobodys' arse will be too sore.

Many years ago in a bizjet, started both engines off of the GPU. Gave the pull the plug sign and received a disconnected and good to go signal. (older model with no indication in the cockpit)
Moments after starting taxi had a frantic line man run beside and give the stop signal.
We shut down and discovered bent sheet metal and a GPU cord in 2 pieces as it had not been disconnected and we ripped the cord in 1/2.
This was at our home base and with a very experienced line staff. When I asked him what happened his response was " I can't believe I was looking at my partner and the plug was still in the aircraft by I gave you the all clear signal anyways"
Complacency, distraction, or brain fart, It could happen to all of us.

Well IF the bar was left disconnected from the A/C and the tug that's a groundcrew error. However, the fact that the flightcrew could NOT have seen tug, TOWBAR and pin is the error on their part. Note error - not blame.

Yes 25 minute turns are challenging - that's why you have to be meticulous. So what if someone pushes ahead of you or get's taxi clearance ahead of you - big deal, it'll cost you a few minutes - chill out.

When the ground crew is released it is imperitive that they are observed crossing the line CLEAR OF THE AIRCRAFT with the tug, towbar, headset man and pin. ONLY THEN should the after starts be done.

BA had a tug breakdown as it pulled away. Flightcrew didn't notice because they had "released" them (night time) - a/c taxied forward and dragged the No2 pod over the lifting booms of the tug...... probably with groundcrew scattering! :eek:

Don't rush, look, be careful, check EVERYTHING clear.

And listen . . . through the very bones of the aircraft. Sometimes nasty things can be felt if not heard.

How long before new SOP, a/c parked side on no tug - tow bar required:ok:

Ahaaaa! The Prune bias strikes again! Just reading through this thread makes me want to laugh.The comments range from mildly disapproving to overly forgiving.;)
Now, if this had been a third world airline-----.:rolleyes: Poor training, no CRM, horrible safety culture blah ,blah,blah,yadda,yadda ,yadda.

Well at least it took 17 posts before someone started blaming it on Ryanair cadets. Usually that will happen in the first 10.

Fact is nobody commenting here has any clue what happened. I haven't even seen a confirming independent source on this incident.

Stop embarrassing yourselves.

right version
 

guys i actually talked to the crew that was involved, the real story is the tug and tow bar were removed, after start checks done an left area was side was clear, as the tug was goin away from the ac towards the rear the towbar came away from the tug as the pin they had used was to short to hold the tow bar in it rolled back and got caught in front of the wheel as they were taxing out... think it was tower who stopped them.. another thumbs up for service air

Rush, rush, rush, rush, rush, rush.......... Accident.

end of story!

Who said they where rushing?

could have been any airline, anywhere. Freak incident, move on, nothing to see here!

Aw dont spoil it - it was a much better story when the groundcrew didn't see it was still attached and it wrapped itself around the main gear - your story doesn't even have the fire service rushing to the rescue....

It would indeed appear to be a freak incident...Carlton Browne and other experts take note. You are reliant on others in this job. If the ground crew use the wrong pin or the wrong towbar as recently happened in another incident then this kind of thing happens.

I've seen 2 occurrences of RYR aircraft calling for push and start when they still have doors open and airstairs out in the past 6 months. It seems they're always keen to get away from the gate. Rush, Rush, Rush.

If you have only seen Ryanair doing this then you must lead a pretty sheltered life! I have witnessed plenty of others using this tactic to get in front of nearby aircraft.

Only the retarded could have a go at Ryanair in such circumstances.
Aldente - I've flown with lots of guys with many thousands of hours who want to rush things at this stage of the game. And its not usually because they feel under pressure or caused by the 25 minute turnaround - its because they want to get home early.
I think we can leave the cadets, the turnaround, the Company out of it.

Let's stop blaming 25-minute turnrounds.

We did those in the '70s, BAC 1-11 and B737, as a matter of routine, allocated seating, lots of bags, manual loadsheet, LMCs, and usually fuelling to next sector minimum and-a-liddle-bit. It was not thought to be onerous, and it wasn't.

And we did not corral departing passengers for 30 minutes at the gate so that they could be shoved aboard in the minimum time.

There's clearly lots of Human Factors to look at when two well-trained and competent teams (flight deck and ground) make an error like that, and I sincerely hope that the incident will be investigated using MEDA by an expert to see what the real root cause(s) was(were) and not just write it off to "pressure". Because if the real cause is not found it will happen again, and again, and again.........

If I were doing the investigation, I would start with a very open mind, and look for more than one cause.

I simply cannot begin to tell you how many times I have heard aircraft call for "Push and Start" when they are still boarding passengers. They are usually trying to preempt missing their slot times.

Especially do I remember a British Airways aircraft, which was parked right alongside me, calling for "Push and Start" when he was nowhere near moving. My request to "Push and Start" was refused on the basis that the aircraft alongside had already been cleared!!!!!!!!!!

At that point, I lost my presence of mind and pointed out to ATC that he was still boarding passengers and was still surrounded by vehicles and in no position to push for some considerable time.

After a bit of confusion, I got my clearance.

Some of our promising sciolistic hysterics are screaming "rush, rush, rush". Do they know that the crew involved were rushing? Do they know that the crew had not been on the ground for 12 hours? Of course they don't.

We are told by A4 that BA managed to drag the No.2 pod over the lifting booms of the tug. Were they on a 25 minute turnround? I seriously doubt it.

In my last job we regularly did 20 minute turnrounds without a problem.

This will probably come down to the pin which connects the towbar to the tug being the wrong size/length or whatever. It's not enough to say that you have to check that the towbar is seen to be on the back of the tug by all you perfect specimens out there for I have been to several airfields where the towbar was taken away by the ground crew in one direction and the tug buggered off in the opposite direction (presumably to pick up a new towbar for the next type of aircraft that he is going to push back).

Perhaps some of the uneducated pillocks among you out there don't know that not all towbars fit every type of aircraft.

In the final analysis, we can't see a hell of a lot from the flightdeck and if the man on the headset tells us that we are clear to taxi, then we wish him well, wait until he walks clear and then start to taxi.

If he has chosen to ignore the fact that he has left a Toyota 4x4 underneath the nose (which we can't see) then what the hell do you expect us to do?

3000 hours, average sector maybe 90 min to 120 min, thats a hell of a lot of push backs!how many bloody push backs do you need to be part of before been considered experienced. Get a grip lads!!

Sometimes the tower can't see that...and rely on YOU to call when you ARE ready. Try watching a Spanish carrier ANY Spanish carrier...they always ask at least 15 minutes in advance.....now back to the thread.

After the engines are started, the scan is complete, we look out the window and see an engineer (who is also a professional) with a pin giving us a thumbs up. Then we request taxi. That's it. How many people's jobs do we have to do?

From another poster: "But I'd OF thought that... It must OF needed a fistful of power..."

Now WTF kind of grammar is that? Even worse than the posters who don't know the difference between "there", "their" and "they're".

Che - you have to do whatever is necessary to protect your aircraft! Or do you wait for an accident and then say ' well, that's not my fault because they should of done it'? (or however your superior grammar skills would phrase it)!:ugh:

Upon reflection, the most ridiculous push and start episode that I ever got involved with happened at Shannon one evening.

I was parked alongside a Channel Express Electra who called for "Push and Start". The only snag was that he had neither a tug or a towbar. Why?

Because the only available tug and towbar was already connected to my aircraft and the chap on the headset told me that they were going to push me back and then go back for the Electra!

At Shannon the tower can't see that part of the airfield so my request to "Push and Start" was refused because the Electra had already been cleared.

The next few minutes were like a sketch from Monty Python.

Eventually common sense prevailed but the point surely is "How on earth can you call for push and start when you have nether a tug or a towbar"?