Alcohol Testing of Flight Crew
 

I've read couple of threads where pilots were tested on alcohol after some suspicion is raised by security staff, their colleagues or pax, but yesterday my crew was subject of such an RANDOM test by Swedish Police.
Of course we passed the test, but when I questioned policemen under what authority they come on board aircraft to test crew (without an aviation inspector for instance), thy told me it was like that in Sweden. I would like to mention that I did not step of the aircraft, but they came in and asked for permission to enter the flight deck. We told them that we believe aircraft to be extra-territorial to Sweden, but I was not sure, and they insisted so finally I accepted the test.
Let me mention that aircraft/company/crew are outside EU.
Does anybody with better knowledge of ICAO convention and EU laws can tell me if all this was legal or there is a chance not to accept such testing in future. My concerns are not so much with Sweden or EU (I don't drink and fly), but with some third world countries where rule of law is questionable or police is corrupted, equipment may be contaminated etc, and tester shows I did drink even if I did't?

IIRC, Tokyo Convention says that A/C is only under juristiction of home nation once under its' own power. Whilst parked it is subject to the law of the land it is sat upon. That was the rules for disruptive passengers, anyway.

Next time say...no entry.

411A Tried that once over another issue. Mmm! they parked a fire truck behind me so could not push back. Got a bit silly really.:ugh:

I suspect you can't really consider yourself safe until you leave a countries airspace/water. Until then they could allways send an escort after you to encourage you to return (on some pretext if necessary).

They can do it
 

737i:

Yes, According to the Chicago Convention (Article 16) specifies that any state authority have the right to search the aircraft, and apply the laws accordingly, be it aviation or local laws, it doesn't specify. It only applies to civil Aircraft, Not state Aircraft.

I understand how uncomfortable the situation can be, but is better just to fully comply than try to object or fight authority, the simply can stop your flight until compliance. good thing it was in Sweden, there are other European and first world American countries than can react third world style if you refuse.

.Seem to remember that that was the situation regarding drinking before flying, which used to be 8 hours Bottle to Throttle in some countries, 12 in others and, if memory serves me, 24 in India, (?) so on a 24 hr. 'slip pattern' one couldn't have a beer at all during the stopover, nothing to do with blood alcohol levels - straight legislation of the country one had landed in, nothing to do with the State of Registration of the aircraft one was flying out.

Had a short slip in Copenhagen whilst in the bar having a post flight beer - a pax waited with one eye on his watch - just under 12 hrs before our scheduled departure time he walked over and told us that we were breaking the law!
We said we were governed by our countries law - which of course we weren't- and got away with it.
Didn't do it again.
Remember most crews would ignore the Indian 24 hour regulation - probably didn't know any better.
Personally I think the obligatory breath test is a good idea - especially after the ANC crash.

It's happening now in Australia; I fly for an Asian airline, and one of our guys was recently random-checked on arrival (!) in AUS after a 9 hour sector. Our crews of course have also been checked outbound. Occasionally these people will shut down activity at regional airports and check everybody who is airside.

This is the same regulator that at the start of their programme mailed out a 'Drug and Alcohol' awareness calendar to every pilot in Australia, at great cost to the taxpayer; said calendar had an entire month missing and other mistakes. The CASA proof reader must have been on something themselves...

I've had the cops on the aircraft in AMS to do alcohol tests on the crew.

I was confident that we'd all pass but helluva worried about the possibility of anyone failing the test (crew arrested, handcuffs on, jail, court trial, sacking etc) never mind having to cancel the service.

The cop did not do the tests in the end as pax were boarding (it was 1600 LT btw) but like the OP, I wonder where exactly we stand legally.

I suspect, you have no alternative but to submit to the test though.

I have heard that a tee-total person can easily blow a 0.17 and that is why the Dutch have the limit set at 0.20.:uhoh:

??? How did he know ? Surely you weren't still in uniform ?

.True, and most of India was 'dry' at that time as well, so on a 5 day slip in Bombay ( not Mumbai ) the only way to get a beer was to register as an aloholic ! I personally never did - and my lips are sealed !!

IOn my last Cop-Stop I blew over the limit, and hadn't had a drink ! The lady cop said it was probably my after-shave, and her make-up often showed her over the limit, too, nevetheless I had to waste time blowing into the next step, the bag, which showed a large zero.

Not condoning drinking and flying of course, but this is getting ridiculous, I think I'll insist on making the next Supermarket supervisor take a breathalyser test before she serves me.

CaptDart
Just to split hairs. Once the aircraft is parked up and shut down (except maybe the APU) I can't see a problem with a little drink. That's from an entirely legal perspective, not from a "looking professional" point of view.

0.2 per thousand that is.....not per cent

I parked up in Brisbane the other day on a turnaround and was met by a CASA inspector who conducted a random breath test on both pilots and two of the four cabin crew. We commented on this all being a bit pointless due to the fact we had just flown in and it would be a bit late not if we were all roaring drunk. She didn't get it:ugh:

All passed though:ok:

A few years back in a CIS country while flying intra country flights on a smallish A320, I was called the day before by company ops: "Hi. You will have a random alcohol check tomorrow morning". What a service :E

As for submitting a test to a police officer, no problems and if you have nothing to hide it only takes a few seconds really. However a company I once worked for informed that they can have someone in the office conduct a brethalyzer test. With that I have a problem. These instruments are not calibrated properly and can show interesting readings after eating fruit or spicy food. Try to explain that to some 22 year old with life experience of a banana when she tells you that you are pissed a skunk. Not personal experience but happened to a mate.

As an engineer I was tested twice by an FAA inspector on consecutive days also it was the same guy, I did of course pass.

I flew for an Indian carrier. A doctor was stationed in dispatch for every departing flight. We were required to sign a form that basically self certified our fitness for duty. Probably on about one in four occasions, we were breathalysed. It was random. Notably, during my two year tenure, 2 pilots were found to be positive. Neither was an Indian national. The resulting events were unhappy outcomes.

I flew with the same carrier as Blaireau, was subjected to an alcohol test approx. 75% of the time departing BOM.....sometimes our company doctor would pop-up in BRU, funny how the locals always knew when this was happening, but the expats were never told!!

Hopefully someone will invent a fatigue test on day. Guess you will still get banged up for failing it though!.

At what point in time between journey from the hotel to pushback does crew become legally liable for being over the limit?

Usually at the report time, 1 hour before departure.

No speedbird - I wasn't in uniform.
1.We had a stupid company rule that the Captain greeted the pax on boarding.

2. We had to collect our baggage with the Pax.

3. Occasionally one of the punters would hope to get his leg over one of the hostesses! The hotel was adjacent to the airport.

As to Bombay - never had a problem bringing booze in there - the CC always had a large bag of chocolates for customs and unlike your outfit we were NEVER searched.

Expect you would nowadays have a problem with the "brown milk" going into Aussie.

Remember the story that changed everything in my old company when a crew nicked most of the return bar for the week's layover in Banjul - and a lot of jock oil workers had to drink tea on the flight to the UK after a month on a dry oil rig!
happy days

My airline (UK A340 operator) requires us to stand down after an alcohol test, regardless of outcome.

Hasn't happened to me (yet) but I bet it's stressful.

in which case, surely, his actions were counter-productive ?

See a PM.

Friend was pilot on a small commuter aircraft tasked with bringing 4 Australian oil-rig workers back from Brunei to Singapore one day. When he got off he remarked to the hostess that he had taken, that they weren't very happy ?

No, she said, we ran out of beer, and it was a 1-1/2 hour flight, after they had been on the rig for 3 months.

How much beer did you load on, he said. 4 cans, she replied, 1 each !!!!

Next time, he said, load 4 crates !

Not that stressful when you are certain that you have not been drinking alcohol in the last 24 hours. Happened to me at LHR last year and I operated the flight as planned and felt no stress type after effects.

Unless there is some State Legislation, over which one hopes the Unions have some input before losing the battle, demanding that a pilot takes a breathalyser test before flying, hopefully with suitable safeguards against 'false positives' - I'd tell them to go to Hell.

Why should some Control Freak Jobsworth effectively brand you a liar and make you prove otherwise with a 'clean' test ? Unless of course you will be breaking the law by refusing, as in a road side situation now. I'm out of it, so no problem for me, but has that situation reached flying yet ? and I sympathise with those now subjected to even more bureaucracy.

I'm NOT supporting any sort of 'right' to drink and fly, but what was once referred to as the coming of "1984" - or was it "Brave New World" -long past now of course ! - i.e. the State control of every action, and mental process, is slowly being forced upon us, witness the futility of the so called 'Security' checks that crew now have to put up with on a daily basis, crew who are actually at the forefront of the battle against airborne terrorism !! Total waste of time. ( and money )

drug and alcohol testing
 

For the past several years in the USA we have had post flight drug random drug and alcohol testing. I probably average a random test once or twice a year. You will also get tested post accident and for probable cause. Our union negotiated 30 minutes of pay per testing so I actually look forward to it.

Could flight crew or a punter request that a security member be tested and is there a limit for them!!!!

Here in Sweden its not only flight crew that are tested.
The police come on the airport regularly and stop all passing ramp vehicles for driver breathalyser tests.
Testing of flight crew is new, I have seen them twice in the last two months, but surprisingly they tested the crew that had landed, not the crew that were departing.
Out on the streets, random breathtesting is common. I personally have been stopped in an all cars roadblock and tested 3 times in the past year, two of them on the Motorway going home from work at 0100.

Maybe I'm missing the point here, but just below this thread, there is an instance of a pilot falling asleep at the wheel (so to speak). Now, as one who has operated both long and short haul routes, I have spent in some years over 220 nights in hotels, sometime jet-lagged, sometimes not. But, if I were a passenger, I would much rather the pilot had a little alcohol in his/her system than had spent a sleepless night in a hotel. I have no idea what all these alcohol readings mean, but the idea of not drinking for 24 hours before flying seems crazy. One may not be able to drink for a whole week!

P.S. I am retired, so don't worry!

For many, "The Lunch Time Beer" before a long night flight was the afternoon naps' soporific of choice, (there was a better one of course, but rarely was a compliant example available - my lips are sealed ) and usually ensured a few hours sleep in a city hotel surrounded by traffic and Police sirens, whereas those who didn't indulge tossed and turned sleeplessly, and reported for work considerably less relaxed, and considerably more knackered some hours later when a demanding landing approached had to be completed.

Testing the crew after a normal sector, with no irregularity, is just crass nonsense, testing a crew to - maybe - prevent a future incident is one thing, but are 'they' going to prosecute a crew for successfully completing a flight !! Would 'they' prefer that crew had crashed and killed everyone , but were stone cold sober, so that was alright ?

The World has truly Gone Mad.

...and what's more, not one RPT aircraft accident, in Australia at least, has ever had alcohol or drugs as a contributing factor. Non-RPT I cannot comment on, but I'm sure it's next to zero as well. How about elsewhere in the world, anybody (Russia excepted!)?

A friend with an AOC (just joy flights for Pete's sake) had to shut down his operation for a day and be harangued by a very well fed public servant about drug and alcohol awareness, his required implementation program, steps to be taken in case of suspicion, annual reporting blah blah blah.

I'm sure public servants in other countries are taking note of this potential for more feather-bedded dogsbodies to be employed at tax-payers' expense for a very dubious return to these taxpayers. The world hasn't gone mad, Mr Speedbird, it's government employees perpetuating their own kind, inventing programs in the name of 'safety' to justify more of them to leech off the ever-reducing numbers of people who actually produce goods and services.

Random-testing one of our guys after a nine-hour flight (see my previous post) wtf? Did these idiots think that the F/O had had a quick 'nip' to settle the nerves for landing? The pilot involved actually commented to the testing Jobsworth that fatigue was more of an issue; the eyes just glazed over...

Unless it is written into a States' legislation, and therefore unavoidable, then I'd follow YorkshireTykes' lead and tell 'em to go to Hell.

The whole business is ridiculous. My company does random drug and alcohol tests on us but always after final block in.


You would think it would be better to do these tests before flight but how would you replace a failed crew member without incuring a delay ?!

So just WHAT is the point ?

I used to fly 14 hr sectors, would they think that the crew served us alcohol at the controls ? But maybe they'd want to congratulate us for successfully completing a demanding approach whilst totally plastered ?

ExSpeedbird, I doubt that you would have done that at LHR and I think it is bad advice to give to any commander operating from any country's airports. Police have powers of arrest and even if subsequently released uncharged, there will be attendant publicity which would best have been avoided by more prudent actions at the outset.
When I was breath-tested, the first I knew about it was when two police officers arrived on my flightdeck at ETD minus 40 minutes. I had barely spoken to the security staff, so I have no idea what they had noticed about my body language. The police were not able to tell me the details of the security staff's report. That is unacceptable and is what needs to be changed.
We departed on time, and this surely would not have been the case had I told them to 'Go to Hell'.

And...why is it unacceptable for the Police to come into your cockpit and ask for a specimen of breath?, its just like a random roadside breath test leading upto Xmas, if u have nothing to hide, why is it a problem???
I spend most nights during the week and a fair few weekends in various hotels around the world and don't seem to have too many issues getting a good sleep

just my view as frequent self loading cargo.

Regards

Neil B

Fatigue
 

Been done....

New cars : Volkswagen UK

Couple more buttons, lights and alarms on the FD &
"Ladies & Gents, we're just stopping here for a quick coffee and leg stretch. Meet back here in 20 minutes."

Coireall .... Yes, I would doubtless have meekly complied, too, doesn't make it right tho' and of course I'm in no danger of having to put my money where my mouth is now !

VFR 750 Is it now acceptable, or even legal (?) for the Police, or others (?) to randomly wave breathalysers at anybody ? Anywhere ? Can they come into your office? If the travelling public reckon that all airline pilots are potential mass murderers by the possibility of having consumed alcohol before flight, then lobby to have it put into legislation - is it yet, I truly don't know ? - at least the pilots' will then have a chance to build in safeguards against corruption and malpractice. A motorist here in NZ was acquitted because he was able to prove that the operating constable had not received the proper training for use of the equipment, do the pilots know that some stranger waving a breathalyser at them is qualified to do so ? And who is ?

I guess in most countries it is unlawful to disobey a Policemans' demand, e.g. that you stop, when driving. I once stopped at such a demand at a roadside Census post. I'd been flying all night, I was knackered, I just wanted to get to bed, and of course I stopped at the outstretched hand, but I pointed out that whereas I had obeyed the lawful commands of a Police Officer to stop, there was no law that enforced me to answer the questions of the jerk with the clipboard, I had flown ... was tired... etc. so he waved me on !

Sleeping at night is rarely a problem, sleeping again in the middle of the afternoon prior to an evening departure often is, plus the added pressure of 'knowing' that one 'must' get some sleep, you, presumably, have the pleasure of knowing that you can sleep on the aircraft, and be reasonably refreshed on arrival, so no pressure to perform, so no problem, you could probably sleep like a baby.

I knew of some who would take a sleeping pill, but they were regarded with the same suspicion that society now reserves for those on 'P' ! "Pilots on drugs !!! Shock, horror.

Just my thoughts, I'm bored with it now, and at my age I have no problem taking the post-prandial nap in the afternoon, even without alcohol, but then I don't have to fly all night, either !

From what I read of working practices in the industry now, fatigue is a greater potential killer than alcohol, and don't forget, it was accidents attributed to fatigue, not alcohol, that forced the bean counters into accepting flight time limitations in the first place, and decent hotels with rooms that could be made dark and silent ( most times ). Let's not slip back into the bad old days - I'm SLF myself, now !

Thinks ... the old Raffles Hotel in Singapore was the ideal crew hotel, the rooms were inside, nowhere near the road, they could be made black inside, and the personal air conditoner was like having ones' own Pratt and Witney in the corner, the steady noise was almost soporific, and kept anything else at bay, and best of all - when one eventually awoke in the middle of the afternoon, one could have a proper ' English' breakfast served on ones' own balcony by a white gloved waiter, with double damask knapkins and table cloth !!!! Happy days !

Enjoy.

I hasten to say that I am a shipping pro, but we have very much the same problems, maybe worse now. My objection is........does this all apply to the office staff?