SAS pilot fell asleep while co-pilot at the toilet
 

Google translation from daily swedish newspaper:

SAS-pilot fell asleep in the cockpit

When the co-pilot went to the bathroom, the captain aboard an SAS plane fell asleep , en route between Copenhagen and Stockholm. The co-pilot had to call twice before the pilot woke up and opened, reported Aftonbladet, referring to a report by the Norwegian newspaper Verdens Gang.
The captain's explanation is that he did not had time to sleep properly because he would fly five routes on one day. Some measures in the pilot will not be taken, announces the SAS.

Some additional info, from the original newspaper article; FWIW.

He was rostered for 5 inter Scandinavian stretches, this happened on stretch 4.

When the doorbell woke him up, he was momentarily disoriented and could not immediately locate the door opener, being newish on the 737.

SAS chief Pilot Bjørn Granviken confirms this has happened last summer. The pilot is anonymous, and the report is intended for use by SAS pilots, not the newspapers.

SAS pilot union foreman Jens Lippestad mentions that pilots have a duty to inform the company when they are too tired to fly. He says current flight time regulations are too flexible and can too easily cause pilot fatigue.

- The rules are too parsimonious - says Lippestad.

Again, this is from a newspaper report; uncertain veracity.

I'm not sure I understand how the FO let this information out. I had a captain that was always asleep 30 minutes after departure on the first flight in California. The flight was only one hour but that is what he normally did. We would change the heading bug to keep us on course until he woke up again. That was before the magenta line days. One FO was going to turn him in but was told, would you rather him fall asleep enroute or on the approach if you didn't let him sleep?

He only 4 hours sleep
 

In the Aftonbladet story here The excuse that he gave was that he had only 4 hours sleep. He was on leg 4 of a 5 sector day CPH-ARN-CPH so had most probably been on duty about 8 hours with turnarounds.
As he must have had the minimum 8hrs hotel time, what was he up to that not only lead to only 4 hours sleep but also to be so knackered that he fell asleep?

It should never have made it to the press!!!!!!

Well, I can think of dozens of reasons why he might have got just 4 hours sleep in his hotel room so let us start with just a few:

1. Children running up and down the corridor.
2. The staff emptying bottles into the skip just outside his room.
3. The maid calling on the telephone to see if she can come and clean his room.
4. The air-conditioning has failed and the room is stiflingly hot.
5. The heating has failed and he is freezing his b*lls off.
6. The front desk has just called to see what time he is going to check out.
7. The company has called to change his roster.

And so it goes on and on. How many of you genuine pilots out there can put your hands on your hearts and tell me that you have always enjoyed 8 hours of uninterrupted sleep in a hotel room somewhere down route?

Dream on!

- declare unfit to fly
- make company to change hotel

Okay, then the rest period is interrupted and starts again at those times....

Always lock your door from the inside! Otherwise someone will surely enter your room for whatever reason (the maid, someone misreading his room number, some hooker trying to earn some additional money, an FA for the same reason sans money etc).

And of course EU-OPS FDT limits are so bad that simply rostering to the limit will surely cause fatigue. At the end of last summer nearly everyone in my company fell asleep during a flight more often than not. A result of p**s-poor rostering.

Yes it should! The scandalous hours some aircrew are expected to work in a safety orientated industry is nothing short of scandalous - and anything but safe.

Quite so, quite so...

Given that the EU is currently considering Europe-wide Flight Time Limits (FTL) this is a VERY TOPICAL subject.

Of course, you have all been to the BALPA FTL website:

FTL Campaign Site • BALPA FTL Campaign Home

Doesn't help that inflight paranoia since 9/11 keeps the poor pilots locked away from all us pax! who would love to visit the cockpit....and ask lots of questions.
How any of you can keep awake on the transatlantic eastbound flight...not only everyone in the cabin is lights out, but nobody's talking on the RT either.
Soporific in the extreme, I should think, fatigue or no fatigue.

and to add to JW411's list ........

8, " Just want to check the mini-bar .. .( " !@*$!U* OFF !! )

9, BOAC Resthouse Karachi, circa. 1959 ... no room telephone, so call-time was by Bearer knocking on the door - albeit carrying a welcome cup of tea ... time 02.00, loud knocking, opened door to be told ( read with nodding head from side to side and with Indian accent) ... " I am waking you up sir, to tell you that you don't have to get up because your aircraft has been delayed "

( the Bearers always had better knowledge of the aircraft movements than the Ops staff ! )

and in other hotels, the ICDU (International Crew Disturbance Unit) - those with the Jack Hammers and the concrete cutters - obviously got advance warning of my roster.

WTF??
 

Who the hell even reports this sh*te... I can't even believe that these stories make their way off the flight... if the national enquirer ever found about how ofter I have awoken from a micro nap to find the copilot fast asleep... it would have been the end of my career 20 years ago...
The sensationalization of all this is getting on my nerves...
6to8

This story is going into the book I am working on at the moment about airline scams and scandals - we will have to see whether it was the pilot or the rostering to blame, but either way I will put a focus on the inadequecies of the current regs. Excuse the thread drift but has anyone any other aviation scandals that could be included? I've got about 25 so far (search airline scams on Google and the PPRuNe thread will appear).

The Captain himself I believe! Non-punitive anonymous reporting system to get the company's attention to bad scheduling! It won't get any better if it is not reported! But the ones who are really at fault here are the legislators who allow this kind of abuse!! They really SUCK!! :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

Mary M. Planned sleeping is the way to go! If I still flew pax I'd be delighted to have yr presence on the flight deck.

Aero Mad. It's not a scandal, just the reality of sleep/fatigue management. everyone deals with it differently - some better than others. I think I'm lucky and usually (though not always) deal with it quite well.

I agree 100% that 8 hours rest in a hotel is going to result in about 5 to 6 hours sleep, if you are lucky.

- Very true; now consider the proposed EU FTLs which could allow downroute hotel "rest" to be as little as 7:30 (which includes 15 min. travel between airport/hotel).
- so that's 7 hrs 'room available for occupation' - and with about an hour each side to go to bed & get ready for next duty & maybe half an hour to actually get to sleep that leaves 4:30 for you to achieve adequate rest before strapping your @rse into that aircraft again.:zzz: Appalling.

I refer you to Checkboard's post #11

Be afraid.

People ...

Minimum rest dictates a minimum of 10 or 11 hours in a hotel of which a minimum of 8 hours should be horizontal rest ... one could be in a hotel for a week or more but did one achieve 8 hours horizontal before reporting for duty?

You guys haven't lived until you fall asleep in a single seat jet that doesn't have an autopilot. :}
In my case, I woke up when my head fell forward at 3 AM, otherwise.....

I caused my wife much displeasure when I extended FTL's to my home.
She thought it entirely reasonable that I get up at 8 of a weekend day to get breakfast for the kids when I should check-in after lunch time.
But when I suggested she get up at 0300 to be at work at 8 she thought I was being unreasonable!

Anyway, it works and I feel better at work.

Guess, who got up today at 7am with the kids when checkin is at 1.45 pm for a 10h duty...
But try and tell the wife...

Big deal,

During the early years of my career we made up to 13 take off and landings in one day. We also flew DC-9 aircraft into 5,000 ft. runways and circled to land with 1 mile visibility and 400 ft. ceilings.

Sure I ended my career at 43,000 ft. with one or two legs each day.....but it wasn't that way for many years.

Yes...fatigue is a major issue. But 5 legs in one day? Give me a break. What a bunch of crybabies. This is the life of a pilot. Perhaps some would better be suited as University Professors.

What about the key pad
 

As my experience in the sharp end is pre 9/11and cockpit security, I am not up to date on current procedure.
On a flight from TFS to ARN last Sunday, The co pilot seemed to have a weak bladder and was always popping out to use the facilities and would use the intercom to get the Captain to let him back in. What is the purpose of the entry keypad on the door? I thought that was to gain access to the cockpit?
What happens if both pilots become incapacitated? does the cabin crew ask if there is anybody who fly this 737 and who also a safe cracker?

The flight was Norwegian not SAS so the Captain was awake

- Sure; that may be true at the moment - but -
- Is (potentially) 4:30hrs asleep (as per my previous post) before a flying duty a reasonable or acceptable amount of rest to be given before a flying duty?

Note: this is not for a proposed split-duty, but for min. rest downroute.

We all know what started out as limits ends up being treated as targets by scheduling.

NEVER EVER EVER leave one person behind a locked cockpit door.

Sleep
fatigue
Pilot Incap.
Egypt Air 990
Silkair 185

Pilot comes out, cabin crew goes in!

Or bank tellers, or other jobs with bankers hours.
Oh boo hoo...can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen (and flight deck).:{

Thumbs up Unhooked :ok:
DinosaurAviator and his fellow dinosaur 411A should probably just crawl back into their caves ;)

Every SMS should assess fatigue risk.

Sorry HC. I May not earn my living via aviation, but I have noticed the decline in stamina amongst humans over the years.

Well Mike X, not really the same requirements and pressure in the good old days either I believe! Or what do you say? :ok:

They may have noticed the decline in human stamina. I wonder if they also notice the decline in accident rates.

True. Us old farts stay awake while the youngsters snore. We don't have kids to take on the school run,or wives who have stuff to do at 0600. Mostly 'cos they left us years ago. Sad innit?

In two pages of comment we have seemed to have forgotten the effect of jet lag on all these rosters.

In a two person crew, controlled cockpit napping with the cabin crew in the loop is the only answer.

About this,

I fully agree with you 4greens. Due to jet lag and 0:30 wakeup times in a hotel after flying all the night before until sunrise is why I sometimes get only 2 hours of sleep before reporting for duty. You can't just turn yourself off unfortunately.

Speak for yourself, PA28...some can, others cannot.:rolleyes:

Which is quite ironic because I have no problem doing it to other people!

Well no doubt this is a slippery slope for sure.

At one operation I flew for, government, when I started the rule was eight (8) hours off every twenty four (24) hour period.

What the hell was that supposed to mean?

The senile chief pilot at the time told me 'exactly that' when I inquired.

So, I inquired again, so counting crew duty time plus flying we are working sixteen hours a day, with only eight hours off for eating, sleeping and travel time, yes?

He replied, "Oh no, were only allowed to work eight hours a day, 08:00 to 17:00 with an hour off for lunch. If we go over that, I have to authorize overtime and Washington doesn't like that."

Well as it turned out, at times we didn't even get the eight hours off. They had this nifty little regulation called 'operational necessity' when all duty rules were overridden.

My longest crew duty day was thirty six (36) hours, in a 727 with the standard three crew members.

I finally, after that trip, working with the Department's safety Division Chief and OSHA, was able to change the crew duty regulations to something we could live with.

But sadly there were still abuses, all in the name of 'for the best interest of the country' of course.

Oh, the senile chief pilot, one day he bragged to the wrong person*, laughing, about a crew that had only been able to spend ten hours in a hotel on a three day mission, on his orders. After that he was ordered to transfer to Fairbanks, Alaska and he retired instead, after 42 years of government service.

Bottom line, we need more effective time off. I've been there and done it, I know what I'm talking about. No one can help about the conditions in hotels. I've checked into a hotel at 09:00 in the morning after a long international crew day, crossing multiple time zones and under the best conditions it is hard to go right to sleep. However, I can't see the airlines, from what I know, ever giving adequate crew rest to crew, both cockpit and cabin crews.

* That person was the Attorney General of the United States.