People ...

Minimum rest dictates a minimum of 10 or 11 hours in a hotel of which a minimum of 8 hours should be horizontal rest ... one could be in a hotel for a week or more but did one achieve 8 hours horizontal before reporting for duty?

You guys haven't lived until you fall asleep in a single seat jet that doesn't have an autopilot. :}
In my case, I woke up when my head fell forward at 3 AM, otherwise.....

I caused my wife much displeasure when I extended FTL's to my home.
She thought it entirely reasonable that I get up at 8 of a weekend day to get breakfast for the kids when I should check-in after lunch time.
But when I suggested she get up at 0300 to be at work at 8 she thought I was being unreasonable!

Anyway, it works and I feel better at work.

Guess, who got up today at 7am with the kids when checkin is at 1.45 pm for a 10h duty...
But try and tell the wife...

Big deal,

During the early years of my career we made up to 13 take off and landings in one day. We also flew DC-9 aircraft into 5,000 ft. runways and circled to land with 1 mile visibility and 400 ft. ceilings.

Sure I ended my career at 43,000 ft. with one or two legs each day.....but it wasn't that way for many years.

Yes...fatigue is a major issue. But 5 legs in one day? Give me a break. What a bunch of crybabies. This is the life of a pilot. Perhaps some would better be suited as University Professors.

What about the key pad
 

As my experience in the sharp end is pre 9/11and cockpit security, I am not up to date on current procedure.
On a flight from TFS to ARN last Sunday, The co pilot seemed to have a weak bladder and was always popping out to use the facilities and would use the intercom to get the Captain to let him back in. What is the purpose of the entry keypad on the door? I thought that was to gain access to the cockpit?
What happens if both pilots become incapacitated? does the cabin crew ask if there is anybody who fly this 737 and who also a safe cracker?

The flight was Norwegian not SAS so the Captain was awake

- Sure; that may be true at the moment - but -
- Is (potentially) 4:30hrs asleep (as per my previous post) before a flying duty a reasonable or acceptable amount of rest to be given before a flying duty?

Note: this is not for a proposed split-duty, but for min. rest downroute.

We all know what started out as limits ends up being treated as targets by scheduling.

NEVER EVER EVER leave one person behind a locked cockpit door.

Sleep
fatigue
Pilot Incap.
Egypt Air 990
Silkair 185

Pilot comes out, cabin crew goes in!

Or bank tellers, or other jobs with bankers hours.
Oh boo hoo...can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen (and flight deck).:{

Thumbs up Unhooked :ok:
DinosaurAviator and his fellow dinosaur 411A should probably just crawl back into their caves ;)

Every SMS should assess fatigue risk.

Sorry HC. I May not earn my living via aviation, but I have noticed the decline in stamina amongst humans over the years.

Well Mike X, not really the same requirements and pressure in the good old days either I believe! Or what do you say? :ok:

They may have noticed the decline in human stamina. I wonder if they also notice the decline in accident rates.

True. Us old farts stay awake while the youngsters snore. We don't have kids to take on the school run,or wives who have stuff to do at 0600. Mostly 'cos they left us years ago. Sad innit?

In two pages of comment we have seemed to have forgotten the effect of jet lag on all these rosters.

In a two person crew, controlled cockpit napping with the cabin crew in the loop is the only answer.

About this,

I fully agree with you 4greens. Due to jet lag and 0:30 wakeup times in a hotel after flying all the night before until sunrise is why I sometimes get only 2 hours of sleep before reporting for duty. You can't just turn yourself off unfortunately.

Speak for yourself, PA28...some can, others cannot.:rolleyes:

Which is quite ironic because I have no problem doing it to other people!

Well no doubt this is a slippery slope for sure.

At one operation I flew for, government, when I started the rule was eight (8) hours off every twenty four (24) hour period.

What the hell was that supposed to mean?

The senile chief pilot at the time told me 'exactly that' when I inquired.

So, I inquired again, so counting crew duty time plus flying we are working sixteen hours a day, with only eight hours off for eating, sleeping and travel time, yes?

He replied, "Oh no, were only allowed to work eight hours a day, 08:00 to 17:00 with an hour off for lunch. If we go over that, I have to authorize overtime and Washington doesn't like that."

Well as it turned out, at times we didn't even get the eight hours off. They had this nifty little regulation called 'operational necessity' when all duty rules were overridden.

My longest crew duty day was thirty six (36) hours, in a 727 with the standard three crew members.

I finally, after that trip, working with the Department's safety Division Chief and OSHA, was able to change the crew duty regulations to something we could live with.

But sadly there were still abuses, all in the name of 'for the best interest of the country' of course.

Oh, the senile chief pilot, one day he bragged to the wrong person*, laughing, about a crew that had only been able to spend ten hours in a hotel on a three day mission, on his orders. After that he was ordered to transfer to Fairbanks, Alaska and he retired instead, after 42 years of government service.

Bottom line, we need more effective time off. I've been there and done it, I know what I'm talking about. No one can help about the conditions in hotels. I've checked into a hotel at 09:00 in the morning after a long international crew day, crossing multiple time zones and under the best conditions it is hard to go right to sleep. However, I can't see the airlines, from what I know, ever giving adequate crew rest to crew, both cockpit and cabin crews.

* That person was the Attorney General of the United States.