Qatar Airways Pilot dies mid-flight
 

It's in the Aljazeera TV breaking news that a Qatar airways flight en-route from Manila to Doha Qatar had to make an emergency landing in Kuala Lumpur, due to inflight death of the pilot. They didn't specify the rank and whether he was operating then or not. I would think such a flight would be augmented crewed and there would have been no real situation where the flight was flown solo for any period at all.
Anybody with the latest could you please update us here on the forum?

Very sad if true and my best wishes and condolences to all concerned, I have friends working for them and I'm trying to find this story for more details but it is not being reporting anywhere that I can see at the moment.

Good ammunition to keep at LEAST two pilots in a cockpit on any airline.

It's a fact of life that thousands of people die prematurely every day. Even pilots.

A question for QR pilots;

Manila to Doha must be about 9 hours. Would this flight have an augmented crew, or just the standard two-pilot crew?

Dave

Would an augmented crew have made much difference ?.

Trying to remove a dead captain from the LH seat would be fraught with accidental control hazards, it would be safer to leave well alone and fly
a diversion from the RH seat. Just make sure that the seat belt is secure and that hands & feet are safely out ouf the way.

That would depend on whether the pilot who died was in the seat at the time.

Dave

What about taking him out of his seat and administer CPR to try to save his life instead? :ugh:

I hope you are not my FO the day my main hydraulic pump fails in flight.

Ok, sorry in advance for bringing this up and I plead guilty to bad taste, but I would really enjoy to read Mr. O'Leary's comments on this incident...
or perhaps Ryanair pilots are forbidden by contract to die while on duty? :ugh:

Don't want to come to wrong conclusion but that poor co-pilot is still under a train!

I would like to see your face when your left/right seat collapse and you aren't capable of doing nothing (also if you are the best CPRest in the world)!

Performing a pilot incapacitation landing can be a piece of cake (especially because trained in the sim), compare to timely handle such a psychological strong event like seen someone dying close to you!

i agree with Yo767. All of the cabin crew that I have met have been trained to safely remove a pilot from the seat and administer CPR. I cannot believe that Mr Geek would really leave a guy having a heart attack to die rather than getting assistance from the cabin crew.

Dave

PS......Are there any QR guys here? How many pilots are on this flight?

3 crew on the way back....

... I really doubt they left the poor guy in the seat!

It depends.

There are degrees of severity in heart attacks. A mild attack can be as simple as a sudden chest pain. My only personal experience was with a neighbour, we were standing next to his garage chatting about car problems when he grabbed at his chest and said "I've never had a pain like that before". Within a few seconds he collapsed to the ground. Not breathing, no iris response, nothing. He was stone dead and nothing we did would have helped. We tried but it was futile.

So yes, it MIGHT be possible to help the captain out of his seat and administer CPR if his condition was recoverable but dead is dead.
I am sure that the crew would have done their best to save him if there was any hope.

Unbelievable

Even with a conventional yoke, two cabin crew should be able to remove a pilot from his seat without causing too much grief. With an Airbus it will be nice and easy.

Condolences to all involved - friends, family and the crew of the aeroplane who had to deal with a traumatic experience and still operate safely.

As an ex First Responder with a little experience, leaving him in his seat is not an option. There is ALWAYS a possibility that efficient CPR may have the right effect, and all large passenger aircraft have an automatic defibrillator on board.?? To leave him in his seat would be unforgiveable. No pulse or breathing does not necessarily mean dead, though if you leave him there, he soon would be!!.

Wood/Trees
 

The key issue here is not how to remove the incapacitated pilot from the controls, it is why such events should take place. Admittedly a fatal incapacitation can always happen, albeit rarely.

With the prevailing exhaustion levels amongst EY/EK/QR long-haul crew, I wonder what consideration the airline management give to the increased risks of in-flight problems. The East-West rostering is at times inhumane, according to my contacts in all 3 companies. I also wonder how much the airlines are concerned about staff health....

And why all the widespread condolences and commiserations to all and sundry? What if the guy was an unpleasant s.o.b? It has been written many times before, but there is no need for half the contributors to send condolences to people they do not have the slightest connection with. Perhaps pprune should have a Condolences section for those that feel the need to express themselves.

Even if he was the nastiest pilot in the world, it's still a traumatic event for the rest of the crew to deal with.

As a cabin crew who has dealt with this issue (happily, our pilot survived) the first thing the F/O did was establish control of the aircraft. He then called us to come and get the captain out of the seat to administer first aid.

His instruction to us was first to avoid hitting the controls and then secondly attend to the poor guy. (one outfit I used to fly for got us to actually practise this on ground with one of the flight deck crew as part of initial training. It was bloody hard to a) get a good enough grip on the guy and b) get enough lifting force to bring him out, clear of hitting anything. Airbus is definitely easier to deal with in this respect)

I'm sure you're all familiar with aviate, navigate. communicate. As soon as the first two were taken care of, we came into it.

I can only imagine how the poor crew felt and while single pilot approach/landing is a high stress/workload, imagine how it is when you've just witnessed your colleage dying/dead!!! Have a little sympathy!!

It was bad enough for us and ours lived to fly another day.

If fatigue is an issue, then it should be looked at.

Just wanted to add in from the CC point of view.

Yes but .....
No pulse or breathing leaves a chance of revival if treated very quickly.
If you shine a bright light in the patient's eye and the iris does not contract there is only one diagnosis - the patient is either brain dead or totally blind in that eye. An airline captain would not be totally blind in both eyes. In more general terms, if both eyes fail to respond and there is no white stick or guide dog the patient must be dead.

If the pilot is dead and there is no replacement pilot to take his place then it is safer to leave him. If there is a chance of resusitation then it is worth moving him and giving all available appropriate treatment.

Geek:

Should the day ever come for you, I hope that those who are in attendance when you are in need will have more compassion than you seem to be able to muster. Sheesh! :ugh:

Fair point but cabin crew are not doctors, we cannot make a diagnosis and in that case would make any and all attempts to provide first response.

Of course, in a cardiac arrest situation the chances of being of any help whatsoever are slim- but we cannot tell that standing behind a cockpit seat looking at the back of his head.

Much easier to assess the situation with the pilot in the galley or other suitable area, not to mention not being a distraction to the remaining pilot (and also a lack of room to do so in any flight deck other than possibly the 380- it's still be a tight squeeze)

Geek...Give it a rest...

Boomerang, thanks for the sensible input.

Geek, I really don't know which planet you are from. This is civilian flying we are talking about and though trained, we certainly aren't exposed to dealing with "dead" persons in any state, let alone at 35000ft with 300 pax at the back. It's a scary situation to say the least. Maybe not so in military flying?

Obviously the way to go is pretty much what Boomerang said. We all get trained to ask the c/c to assist in such situations in the very way he has explained.

What need to be explained here is why the poor captain went the way he did.
Was he sick? fatigued? overworked? or simply a course of fate?
And is there anything that could be learned from this? Did he enough l/o period in MNL and was he truly rested?
The airline I flew with in 747 classic, though three crewed had an extended layover policy on long haul trips like these. From what I understand the money making oriented gulf airlines squeeze every minute out of the layover time to bare legality. I can only speculate, but if enough of long haul short layover trips are made, it's only a matter time before the poor motor packs up!

if you shine light in one eye and it does not react he also could be under Atropin which widens the pupil and you may not get a reaction. Other options come to mind as well such as focal brain lesions such as abscess, hemorrhage etc. Diagnosis of death is by US law and German law and many other countries ONLY to be made by a licensed physician, which I assume based on your comment you are not. And your comments show the very reason why these laws are in place to start with...

The Ancient Greek

Not only are you totally out of order, if you conducted yourself as you describe in a real life situation say with a member of my family who was flying upfront with you, I would haul your ass through every court in the land until I had the very shirt off your back. Pilots are Pilots, we are not Doctors, no matter how many documentaries you have watched or web pages you have read to make you an \'expert\' ... Not!

The completely correct action was taken by the FO. Divert the aircraft immediately, hoping the poor guy is not dead and that onboard assistance and expert medical help on the ground can save his life.

Condolence to the family

Aviate, Navigate, Resuscitate, Communicate!:ok:

Only 43 years old. Very sad indeed. Know the crew and the route well. My regards to all involved.

Long haul aircraft should have body bags - that's what you do with a dead person.

Folks,

this is an important thread on an important issue, which thankfully occurs very rarely. A few points.

1. Dealing with an incapacitated flight crew member is something that should be in every airline's SOPs. I am rather taken aback by the lack of a single contribution which starts "our airline's SOPs are to do ...." There are a bunch of decisions to be made; about when, how and where, and by whom, to try resuscitation, which are not trivial and should not have to be made on the fly. And these SOPs should be regularly reviewed.

2. Many of the contributors to this thread have obviously not had to deal with medical emergencies and their main corollary, dead people, on a regular basis. The question: what do I do if my crew dies on me? is valid and requires an answer a little more grounded than expressing condolences and sending a card.

3. Ancient Geek has done nothing more than relate an experience and make a triage suggestion. In doing so, he has contributed more in terms of points 1 and 2 above than any of those contributors who criticise him for it (and, in contrast to those who berate him for his contribution, he has been neither impolite nor inappropriate).

I didn't know whether he is right or wrong about iris response as an appropriate way of deciding whether resuscitation is worthwhile. So I asked my partner, who is a dialysis nurse; they quasi-regularly have such emergencies.

She says check pulse, breathing, maybe eyes (iris contraction), but that there is no single indication that someone is dead. Lack of iris contraction indicates brain damage of some sort, but one cannot thereby conclude that the victim is dead. She says that resuscitation must always be tried. But of course she operates in a relatively unconstrained situation.

They perfom CPR, on a special board, because almost everything else is too flexible to perform it properly. The defibrillators may only be used by a doctor (they don't have a "layperson's defibrillator"). I asked what one would do if it happened to a captain in-flight. It is obviously not possible to perform CPR on someone in a seat, but she doesn't know if one could effectively apply a lay defibrillator on a sitting person.

There are other people I could ask; for example, an acquaintance who is a full-time emergency-response doctor. But I think this is enough for now. This commentary just goes to support point 1 above.

It looks as if iris-response is just one of a constellation of things to try, none of which, either alone or all together, forms a universally valid decision criterion for death.

4. Concerning the trope that only a registered medical doctor may determine death in England and Wales and the US and other countries, prima facie it rather misses the interesting point, which is: what do you do if it happens in your presence? It is a question which most people who put themselves out of quick access to medical services (for example, most people who go sailing, backpacking, trecking, rock-climbing, mountaineering, cross-country skiing, even hunting and angling) are wise to ask themselves, and indeed such guidance is available.

However, there is a point here for aircrew. Crew may be wise first to ask whether there is a doctor on board and solicit hisher help without delay. If there is, and heshe is willing, then heshe can perform the relevant determinations and guide response. (There may be the problem of persuading a doctor to undertake the responsibility.) If not, then the legal issue is irrelevant and the crew must do what they think best. The very best is that they follow established guidance in their SOPs, because if they improvise, and someone disagrees later with what was done, they might have a liability problem which they would not necessarily have (although their airline might have) if it's in SOPs.

5. There is obviously a tension between the necessity to revive someone suffering from cardiac arrest, and the risk to flight involved in removing them to a place in which this may be attempted. This risk should be mitigated through a proper risk analysis and determination of appropriate procedures to mitigate risk, and we are back to point 1 above.

PBL

Re: Doctor on board; it may well be worth extending the call for outside assistance to include ambulance service paramedic. In fact it may be the better first option as they'll have far more experience of dealing with heart attacks 'in the field' than most doctors.

It is mandated that passenger aircraft carry defibrillators, which crew can operate.
I have had at least three passengers die in some of my flights. The last one the defibrillator was on board and though used, he couldn't be saved.

It was mentioned the captain was a 45 yr old man.
That's sadly rather young.
I wish someone was able to fill us in on the exact circumstances sorrounding this gentleman's demise.
What we are doing here is totally misdirected speculation.

What a terrible situation to get stuck in! Your colleague`s main engine (heart) fails when at cruising altitude, and suddenly you`re in charge of the way things are going to happen in the very near future :eek:. You`ve probably been drillied in the sim and through company SOPs on what to do and how to do it, but these things happen rarely (you`re more likely to encounter an engine failure) and they are never the same.

Aviate, navigate, communicate... These things have been correctly mentioned. But it is also very important to assess your new world before doing anything. No contact with the guy next to you? He`s not sleeping? Unconscious? Maybe/maybe not...:confused:. First thing to do, just to get things started, is call "my controls". If you can secure your colleague by the seatbelt/harness lock then you should have him slumping down/forwards on the control column - which you now are in control of. Then, call the CC for assistance. While he/she/they are coming, call ATC and divert to nearest possible airport for a priority landing. Now you`ve effectively used very many of your options for help and can focus on flying the bird you`re in charge of:ok:. Unless you`re a doctor or have sufficient medical training, there is really no way of finding out exactly what is wrong with your colleague, but if you`re doing nothing (or your best) to help him then you`re doing something wrong.

But this is why air transport aircraft have a minimum of 2 flight deck crew onboard. Also, those who fly single pilot commerciallly over a certain age are required to have their medical at shorter intervals than those flying multipilot.

Also, this is where an FO with experience is preferable:D

Automatic defibrillators can be used in a seating position, BUT the use of them is generally supplemented by CPR. which cannot be given in this position. Automatic defibs are simple to use, the instructions are verbal when the lid is opened, and the voice is very clear and easy for anyone to follow. It is not good enough on it's own, however, and if it gives instruction,after auto assessment, 'shock not advised, continue with CPR', then there is a problem if the victim is still in the seat. Clever piece of kit tho'.

Well done to QR for being able to summon an entire crew in KL and achieve a turn-round in under two hours.

Such incidents are very rare, my 2 non-fatal incapacitation events are probably more than most will experience in their career. The first was in basic training in a Chipmunk and the second hauling freight in a DC3 so there was nothing that could be done in either case other than to get to help on the ground ASAP.
The instructor and the FO both survived but neither flew again.

Maybe I have been a tad insensitive to the religious and cultural values of some contributors, my apologies to any who have been offended.

As others have said, the first priority is to fly the aircraft safely. Then assess the risks and get whatever appropriate help is available. SOPs and prior training are a great help but the best hope will always be the professional medics on the ground.

Hi all. I'm just a SLF normally found lurking and keeping myself to myself because I haven't got any aviation experience or knowledge to share, but I did used to be a Paramedic so have a little relevant information with regards to this thread.

Just to make the point that fixed dilated pupils aren't a sign of brain death, and there is every chance that with prompt defibrillation someone in cardiac arrest and dilated pupils might well be saved. Its been a few years since I've been in the job, but they used to say that for every minute that passes from arresting to defibbing the chances of survival go down by 10%, so even allowing for the time to remove the pilot from the seat in theory you might stand more chance of getting someone back than we did, bearing in mind our sometimes lengthy response times.

Obviously it all depends on why someone arrests and the cardiac arrest rhythm they go into, and they're probably more likely not to survive than be saved, but a younger patient just suddenly dying from nowhere I reakon would probably be the most likely to respond to a defib.

Don't want to sound like I'm saying that this poor guy could have been saved, not talking about him in particular. I've been to dozens of cardiac arrests and only got about 5 back. Just that without trying, you'll never know. Fixed dilated pupils aren't diagnostic of death.

As far as summoning a crew to continue the journey, there would have already been a QR crew in KUL anyway on their regular KUL layover (KUL is also an A330 destination for QR, with an extension now to Phuket, so there are mixed layover durations of 24 hours up to 48 hours). My guess is that the diversion to KUL was selected to take this into account (other nearby QR destinations of SIN and BKK are now 77W ports, so there would not have been a suitable crew at either of those locations to allow the flight to continue onwards.)

Of course, the airline would ONLY have made this decision to proceed onwards to KUL (even if BKK or SIN were closer for medical emergency) with the onboard knowledge that the Commander was already deceased, and therefore, immaterial where the aircraft diverted to.

Horrible thought, but probably a sad fact.