French ATC
 

On a similar vein to the Spanish ATC problems of late, all I have had when asking for short-cuts that are usually given on initial check-in is "standard routing". With that and their lack of any flexibility on flight levels, plus their tendency to go out on strike France24 - Air traffic controller strike to disrupt flights from French airports it's all making for a costly and heavily disrupted summer so far.

From what I can understand, today's strike serves a different purpose from that of the current work on rule strike.

The reason they're carrying this work on rule action at the moment (a strike with no name as there is nothing official - how bold of them !!! They still get paid for buzzing those very people feeding them) is that they now have to sign in.

YES how can you expect from anyone to sign in at work ! This is slavery at work. And the reason signing in is such a disgrace to their eyes is that they used to surf on a system whereby people were simply called off from work during less dense trafic periods. Which means these people used to stay home but were still counted as active, working staff : getting paid for not working. How about that !!! This is called the "clearance" system, i.e. forget about coming to work today, you're cleared to dabble in all sorts of leisure activities, doing :mad:

Now, the fact they have to sign in with their own ID card and not just waiving at the team as before means they have to take this "work method" out of their life style.

Their argument is "if you want to abide by the rules (i.e. signing in) so will we. All standard, no fuss, no search for improved flight tracks or flight levels. Nothing. All by the charts, obviously forgetting that speeding traffic flows is a hard part of their duty.

Now you know why your airline is wasting so much money in France for these drama queens.

A bit like standby then, how disgraceful.

Does that mean they will answer your call 1st time? now ;)

ATC: "Aircraft 123, can you increase Mach point seven eight?"

Pilot: "I don't know, Bordeaux, can you give direct DIKRO?" :ok:

atc: descend to FL 290:}:E

Pilot: Dial in 7600 and stay up there. :}

Now that is about the most constructive solution I have read so far but I do wonder how many of you out there would actually have the balls to do that.

More years ago than I care to remember, that was the only way that the Red Arrows (when they flew Gnats) could go anywhere in Europe due to their lack of range and inability to deal with the vagaries of French ATC etc.

Their answer was to climb to F310 or thereabouts and then go "speechless" until it was time to come down again.

Worked like a charm.

Indeed, JW - and sometimes there were R/T difficulties with French ATC 'not below xxx ft' for fly-pasts at airfields :)

Then of course there's the language barrier...i.e.-where are the AF A/C and what are they doing??? Hope you speak "Francais"...

Even the African Controllers (pick a Country, it doesn't matter) have a better command of "Aviation English" than the French...

I understand todays 24hr strike was in protest of the French Governments proposal to raise the state retirement age from 60 to 62.
Strange how this wasn't reported on the UK TV News today.

First sentence is valid, but can't say there is much validity in the second.

Whilst it is not unusual for Americans to have to have some particular difficulties with instructions, I had always just put it down to accents, or the fact the patter wasn't being delivered at the speed of a tobbaco auctioneer!

I have always found French ATC to be professional and precise, when they are working.

They pis$ed off a load of yanks in a flying gin palace today.. Nice 3 1/2 hour hold.. Made us laugh!!

Maybe they've just read this?
EUROCONTROL - Flight Plan & ATFCM adherence

Eurocontrol really have got this all wrong. If they experience "overdelivery" it's because they've understaffed the sectors concerned for economic reasons. Planning on their part should include the expectation that real world efficient flow of airtraffic includes DCT routes and different FL's flown for fuel economy, therefore traffic will sometimes arrive early.
Who's providing a Service here? Not Eurocontrol or it's Commitees, that's for sure.

Best ever ATC instruction one can get:
"Contact London on XYZ (freq.)" ...in a French accent!!!

So in the current economic climate with European air traffic 13% below it's 2007 levels Europe's controllers suddenly can't handle it any more. Yes aircraft change speed, level, heading and departure times for any number of reasons, this is not a utopian world and forcing aircraft to burn thousands of tons of extra fuel to save understaffed atc units a few pennies is a sad reflection on (mis)management culture. The cry of flight safety is hackneyed and wearing a bit thin. Provide the service for which the airlines pay hundreds of millions in Eurocontrol charges.

The pax will enjoy the views of the Mirage or Rafale off the wingtip I'm sure :}

How did this get away from the original thread?

Los Endos,

They aren't Eurocontrol charges. Eurocontrol only collects the charges on behalf of the ANSPs/states so each airline doesn't get a seperate bill for each country they fly over for every flight ! :ugh:. The states set the charges and spend the income - nothing to do with Eurocontrol.

Nightstop

Why have they got it wrong? In today's economic climate service providers also have to cut costs and they provide the staff when and where they are needed, calculated by the only means available to them - flow and demand predictions. If a sector reaches capacity there is not a lot anyone can do except put on restrictions. If an airline files below/around that sector to avoid that restriction they know they have extra fuel burn and costs but are prepared to fly to keep on schedule - then it is a calculated business decision. However if the airline requests the higher level/direct on frequency and it is given this can quickly overload the restricted sector and could be extremely dangerous.
I see it every day with a certain Irish airline that files FL320 and always requests FL380 when on frequency - this causes extra workload (and throws all the predictions out) as we have to check with flow to see if there are any restrictions further down the route - maybe we should start charging them for every change to their plan (booking) :E:E
ANSP's don't provide extra staff when not required ( just in case there are some level changes or direct routes ) just like airlines wouldn't provide extra cabin crew just in case there is a high demand for drinks !! :ooh:

The future is flight plan adherence - get used to it!

Also to those that are complaining about not getting direct - think about it. You are getting exactly what you have paid for and requested (flightplan route) - just because you usually get a bonus (direct) doesn't mean you are entitled to it - so stop throwing the toys out of the pram :=

Millerman

Well said millerman, plenty of people looking at this one way only.

Stop muddying the waters...

No one would complain if the reason "directs" aren't given is because of ATS constraints.

What folk object to, is the system being used by disgruntled employees to make a point.

This isn't about capacity, its playing politics with a safety critical element of Europe's transport infrastructure.

:=

At least we are now allowed to file and fly direct routings over some of Europe at night. Considerable fuel and time savings. Win Win. Hopefully it can be extended to all of Eurocontrol Airspace during day time as well.

Not exactly helping the environment with all that extra carbon being dumped over France and Spain...

Every time you get these pan European Bureaucrats set up their cosy offices it is only a matter of time before instead of them serving the user groups/parties roles are reversed. Closer and closer integration in Europe I don't think so. Yet again the tail is wagging the dog. To suggest Eurocontrol collect on behalf of and pass on charges to individual states is a joke. This burdensome system takes a huge chunk of money to support itself. Whilst airlines struggle at times to make a few euros from each seat these talentless clowns are charging eye watering amounts of money to run a system and change it's procedures to suit itself.
Controllers across Europe must start to realize they are not immune to what the wider world is going through. We are all going to have to work harder with a squeeze on our T&Cs. Those in the public sector particularly in the med countries have got to wake up to the fact that the North Europeans are not going to continue to handover huge amounts of EU money so that they can continue their comfortable lifestyle. The gravy train has finished, either adapt or die.

french/spanish ATC: you have to cross FL 260 within 3 minutes
A/C: unable

french/spanish ATC: maintain mach .78 or more/less
A/C: unable

french/spanish ATC: descent FL 310
A/C: XXX descent FL 310
A/C: reporting moderate to severe turbulence at FL310, request climb back to FLXXX

french/spanish ATC: turn left/right HDGXXX (maybe when unable to reach FL260 within 3 minutes because of their letters of agreement)
A/C: unable due WX

french/spanish ATC: fly according to flight plan route
A/C: need left/right deviation to a HDG of xxx degrees and climb to higher level due WX (a shortcut and a higher cruising level in one call)

.. and it IS just a request. If it isn't available, a refusal doesn't offend.

.. its tough having to do a job, isn't it. :rolleyes: If we are all going to fly as planned, perhaps we can automate ATC and save a load of money sacking all of the human controllers. :rolleyes:

Fees are already charged. They include operational changes en-route - hence the requests you receive.

What comes out of the Eurocontrol (and any other) committee is only as good as what goes in (RI-RO)

Maybepilot Has it ever occured to you that you may not be the only aircraft in that particular bit of airspace or that there may even be lots of military people playing around with flash bangs just off the airway?

Pitotheat for your information Hardly a considering that the costs, per country, would be about the same if each country charged individually.

Then sit back and enjoy the view as already suggested. BTW please retain the CVR tape for analysis. And if we really decide our plonker is being pulled, expect an unscheduled diversion and a long and thorough examination (including the lubricated rubber gloves):}

Ahhh, the favorite argument of a monoglot! Hope you'll never fly to Latin America. Stay home! The world outside your (limiting) box is seemingly too much for you to handle. Pathetic argument :ugh:

Checkboard

Maybe in your world refusal doesn't offend but in my (real) world it often does, with quotes such as " do you know how much extra fuel we will have to burn ?" or even "why?" - take it up with your company and tell them to file the correct RFL :rolleyes: and don't waste my time on the frequency.
By the way when automation comes to your utopia let me know, and I will happily retire to the beach - but I for one would not step on an aircraft again:ok: It is a lot easier to automate aircraft than ATC systems :ooh:

Can't we just get along?

Lon,

er, 0.3% of a very, very, large sum of money is still a very large sum of money.
Especially when it should be close to zero................

There was a time when we very much did so. Crews came to visit us and whenever we flew we were invited to the pointy end for the entire trip. This encouraged not only good relations but an opportunity to discuss and appreciate each others' job and operational frustrations.

Now days, both in ATC and at the pointy end of aircraft, there are too many young, selfish and arrogant know-it-all pups who think they're God's gift to aviation and the entire world should revolve around them. I've spotted one or two on this thread already.

Ancient Observer the point is it's one time 0.3%, The alternative would be say, 4 countries overflown, therefore 4 x 0.3% + 1.2%. Then the extra work for the airline accounts dep. = more beancounters

Avman I was thinking along those lines too; and it wasn't Millerman:}

except they were called Co-Pilots then

Please move right down the bus!!

For sure not, he doesn't qualify as "young" any longer :}:E

Maybepilot
I am not there to serve you (or bow to your every whim) I am there to provide a SERVICE there is a big difference :ugh: especially when your requests (because your company is trying to dodge restrictions) can compromise safety :ugh:
I try to give the best directs I can at all times because I believe that is part of the service but when I am working my balls off and the R/T is busy and someone asks for direct through various military areas (normally stepping on someone else) with no situational awareness or awareness of anyone else in the sky - then I can get a little :mad: off ! := If you could go direct there you already would be :*

If you want me to serve you then that is a completely different service and it will cost you a hell of a lot more :mad:
But I forgot some of you think you are royalty and everything should be there for you and no-one else!
God help us if you are allowed to separate yourselves with everyone wanting to fly at the same time at the same level with no-one backing down :ooh:


Avman

Thanks - I certainly don't feel "young" at the moment. I will certainly feel a lot older if I have to start "serving" pilots !! :eek:

millerman,

don't have to explain how hard you work and how good you are at providing your service, what we experience on the line on a daily basis says it all already: just read the comments of those who "enjoy" the services of french/spanish ATC.


Please let us fly the flight planned route and talk to us the least you can, if we have a situation up there we'll tell you what we need and you just do what you are told as per your manual.

What on earth has gone wrong with Aviation? Where has the mutual respect gone?

We have 18 year old, 9 to 5 office workers complaining that pilots are overpaid, controllers treating heavyweight 747s as though they were helicopters and pilots demanding all sorts of short cuts!

Let's face it, we are really not that clever, if we were we would not remain in what is becoming a toilet of an industry. We would earn huge bonuses, retire early and fly Tiger Moths on sunny days!

Why? The system predicts conflicts, and TCAS-like software demonstrably knows how to resolve them. Lots more to do, and political issues, and everyone would like a friendly voice on the ground once in a while, but it's technically do-able.

As I said to a CFMU punter one day long ago, "not only do you control air traffic, you get to control how much air traffic you will control, obviously to your benefit." The bloody lot should be fired, except in France they might burn down the country in juvenile tantrum.

GF

My favourite line from "the Castle"... "Tell him he's dreaming"

If it were 'doable' it would've been done... ANSPs world wide spend around 60% of their revenue on wages imagine what profits could be made if they were able to automate ATC... The millions spent on 'automating' some of the functions and proving to be error ridden time and time again, never on time, never on budget, would suggest that we are a very, very long way off 'full automation'. Oil supplies will probably be exhausted before we get it done.

I feel incredibly sad that this juvenile name calling and chest thumping has dominated a thread that could have been constructive and opened up understanding at both sides of the mike... oh well... next thread...:}

How can all this be true?

I have been told by a French ATCO that French ATCOs are the most highly trained and best in the world at being ATCOs.