Glad I just finished my cup of tea, otherwise my laptop would be wearing it whilst I burst into laughter at the previous comment.

Also the reason why RYR often request different levels to what is filed is that nearly all their Flight Plans are RPLs so it just spits out the same speed, level and route on a repetitive basis.

If you are bombing around in turboprops or in jets on very short sectors then RPLs will probably still bear a close resemblance to what gets flown in terms of level etc.

galaxy flyer, are you suggesting that traffic flow should not be regulated ('controlled' in your words), or do I misunderstand you?

SquawkEmergency...

I have flown to EVERY Country in Central/South America...and have lived and worked for many years in 3 different countries in Africa...

The difference is France purports itself to be a First World nation...Not 3rd world...Get on the bus or walk...join the modern world or be prepared to be classified otherwise...

The sad thing is: they really, honestly, genuinely, believe it's true, and they use this as a reason to justify the outrageous terms and conditions they enjoy (as well as their ability to paralyze the country, as they do from time to time). Chronically weak french governments do the rest when it comes to bolster their ego and reinforce their position.

The rest of us who fly in their airspace know what they are really worth when compared with their european colleagues, be it East of the Rhine, North of the Ardennes, or West of the Channel.

Avman

First, my point was that that can control how much work they want to do and there appears to be no one saying that more can be done. CFMU could say 100 airplanes a day, who's to tell them different?

Second, there is, except for 4 or 5 airports in the US, nearly no slot regulation in the US. There are exceptions for extreme thunderstorm weather, but no general slot regulation like in Europe. The reason, as I see it, is the arcane and outdated idea that every country has to have its own ATC system with the resulting over-sectorization and coordination. Also, too much confidence that one office in BRU can figure out the correct level of traffic across the continent. Over-centralization of control.

Say what you want, there is considerably more traffic in North America with far fewer controls, slots, ATC "job actions", etc.

Third, when US ATCOs tried a strike, Reagan pulled out the rug, so slowdowns or strikes here are not even thought of.

GF

Millerman

If you're going to pedantic, I'll just call them navigation charges, Ok ? Unfortunately flying conditions change daily and we try to fly the aircraft as efficiently as possible given those conditions. If you can accomodate a different flight level or a direct routing great, if not, tant pis. But please lets not get patronising, it achieves nothing.

LOs Endos
I wasn't trying to be pedantic - just pointing out the common misconception that Eurocontrol doesn't set or even benefit from the charges that the states levy.
Also I wasn't trying to be patronising but when you work 50 aircraft in an hour and 30 of them ask for direct - it does tend to grate a bit, especially when they have just heard you explain that the military are active!
Also when you say proceed direct to ABC and the reply is can't we go to XYZ - If you could go there I would have given it you :hmm:

Galaxy flyer, you are comparing apples with pears. I can only presume that you have no understanding of the complex airspace structure in Europe. This is not Eurocontrol's doing nor is it that of the ATCOs. To put it in a nutshell, they just don't have the same amount of airspace to play in as the USA does. I have flown 35 nm downwind before being given the turn back in at DFW. Try do that at some major European airports and you would be in some other country's airspace, or restricted (military) airspace.

No, there's no flow regulation in the USA, that's why you spend 90 minutes taxying at JFK before getting airborne. I wonder what costs that produces in wasted fuel in each year.

how many have died in aircraft collisions at US aerodromes without ATC since the PATCO strike?

(genuine question)

Hmmm. I wonder whether the sysem could also predict which aircraft would fly by rather than over the waypoints/dial in 20 kts more than instructed/descend at 300fpm & not meet requirements/not have the cabin ready for landing/declare emergency & request priority etc. etc. The point is moot. :ugh:

Let's face it - when the time comes that controllers are no longer needed because of automation, there will surely be no pilots either! :hmm:

Time we all got together around a large jug of beer and got over the "us and them" mentality that tends to prevail these days.

Guy.

p.s. If you're looking for super direct routeings, it's amazing what an ID90 or two can do!! (and I don't mean Emirates' version - i.e. 10% discount!!!):mad:

I didn't suggest that ATC would be replaced by automation, just as auto-fly/auto-land airplanes still are fully manned - just that if there were political will, existing technology could automate much of the system.

Computers can consider that kind of data much faster than humans, so could quickly evaluate and authorize pilots' requests for the best route/altitude. And would of course have knowledge of the entire airspace - no "coordination" with the computer in charge of the next sector.

Meanwhile, the centers would still be manned (probably at a lower level).

Yes, it ain't gonna happen, but not because it's beyond the technology.

Del Prado

Your question is more properly, how many mid-air collisions occurred at airports that lost VFR towers post-1981? Don't know, but there are about 10,000 uncontrolled airports in the US and probably, guessing, about 200 lost VFR towers and never regained them.

Avman

Well, not so fast, I've been flying in Europe for better than 20 years, civil and military, in fact, off to Rome-Ciampino in the morning. I completely understand the limits of geography. I also have waited 2 hours for a slot, only to get airborne and be cleared direct to a fix 200 nm away and barely anyone the frequency. Anecdotal, true, but common enough. I have been told that my slot wouldn't be for 2 hours, let the pax off and instantly given a slot in 20 minutes. It doesn't take more than, say, 20 of events to get real cynical about European ATC.

BTW, LAX airspace is pretty tight with 5 major airports and probably two dozen uncontrolled airports within a 40 mile radius--slot regulation, NOPE. Last US mid-air involving an airliner was there 24 years ago and put the fire under TCAS implementation.

GF

ACCP

I notice that the beloved "Shpain!" did not make that list.

One has no problem wondering why, though! :)

You're right. I didn't mention South of the Alps either.

galaxy flyer, I guess we could go on for ever, just like a recent tennis match ;)

I fly regularly both in Europe and the USA and I have to say that in the past 5years I have on average experienced more ground and airborne holding delays in the USA (often disguised in the USA by extended "scenic" routes to the approach) than I have in Europe. That's the truth. Of course there are many variables which can to a certain extent distort the reality, just the same as you getting a 200nm direct and "barely anyone on the frequency" means diddly-squat if you know anything about ATC.

Go visit some European ATC enroute centers and you might just be surprised. If nothing else, it'll do you good to get away from that cocooned little world you live in up there in the clouds. ;) [Just kidding with you].

Take care, fly safe.

Come on guys, be kind. There are some very good French controllers. Only problem is, they are six feet under ground:}:}

Oh, and don't mention the last two big wars, whatever you do

Schiphol has the best controllers, the ones most pleasant to work with and the best sense of humour. That's my own personal opinion anyway.

The reason for the delay might not be in the en-route sirspace but at DEP or DEST. Alternatively you might be flying through airspace that was expected to be full but where the traffic has all requested different FLs and is now several thousand feet above you..
Dep slots are very fluid, it's worth asking what the chances are of there being an improvement, possibly even stating that you need 30 minutes to herd them back on board again (alt. fly freight at night:}) If you want cynical, sit watching a teleprinter spew out 20 (slightly) different plans from A to B on the same flight number with a different suffix. All of them required a clearance, then 5 minutes later another company did exactly the same. Of course, they accept what for them was the best slot, but frequently forgot to cancel the others. result, empty skies when the sectors should be humming. So the fault in the past often laiy with the Operators. As a supervisor I only ever once dropped the capacity below the declared value, due shortage of staff caused by poor planning. The resultant meeting with no coffee or biscuits convinced me that it was not a good idea.

I think the situation with CFMU is a lot better than it was in the past when each unit had its own Flow Cell and each and every flight, sublect to restrictions had to be co-ordinated individually

I have decided that if the Frogs ask me to adjust my level or speed when established in the cruise, then due to 'operational reasons' I can only accomodate their request if they give me a 'short cut'. :}

:rolleyes: Just starting to captaining a B757, an old dutch TRE showed me how it's done: n/b from TFS - "request H040 due to WX" - "approved, report able to turn back on track" - (after 5min.) "Fltxx, proceed to XYZ" - "unable, request to mtn H040 to avoid WX" etc. etc. - "Fltxx, this is unfair as undermining our efforts 2 improve work cond's". :}