411A, didn't you say on an earlier post you are now management after going through the pilot ranks?

Spirit will probably change their management now. The pilots want it to be done ASAP. The new contract will not be renegotiated and you know it. Is one of the first things management training trains you is to lie and believe it is the truth?

Spirit is not going to fail because of the pilot contract. We all know that. The future economy could affect them like anybody else but this contract will have no effect on the outcome.

Good job Spirit, now hopefully every airline pilot sees the light at the end of the tunnel to get through the RLA process and go on strike to get the companies attention. It seems to be the only way to deal with them.

Interesting to see no mention of the circa 80,000 fare paying passengers whose flights were cancelled during all this. Whatever the rights and wrongs of this dispute you can bet your bottom dollar that few of those people or their friends and relatives will trouble Spirit with their future business. Plenty more fish in the sea?

Two's in.

Unfortunately, what you say is not true.... The pax will come back in droves for a fare sale that is 5 cents cheaper than the next ticket. In the day and age of priceline, leisure carriers like Spirit compete strictly on price. Strikes happen, as long as everyone gets back to work and starts moving the people, 6 months from now it will be like it never happened. In many cases, those pax will be back in a hurry, once they saw what it cost to fly on AA/DELTA/Contintal, and they realize that the extra money didn't get em any extra worthwhile service...


There is no such thing a brand loyalty these days, with the exception of large business accounts, and spirit doesn't have the kind of market penetration to attract business accounts...

These days it doesn't matter how good your service is, you live and die by your priceline listing. Don't believe me? How's midwest express these days?

Cheers
Wino

Low cost Pax!!!!
 

They will be back in drove's, tough to beat that $9 seat. Spirit Pilot's we are proud of You. From a line pilot of 40+ years. Thanks to all of You.:):)

passengers and strikes

way back in 1975, when I was a soldier in the US Army, I was planning my Christmas Leave in October. It was common knowledge that United Pilots were planning a strike around Christmas.
So, I had to make my reservations on Piedmont to IAD from Norfolk, and from IAD to Phoenix on TWA continuing to SFO on TWA.

I was the only guy who got home for Christmas that year.

the buyer must beware...those passengers interviewed on TV seemed like NON SAVY travelers.

Spirit Union Pilots, did you issue a press release of possible strike? I'll bet you did!

First off yes, we warned passengers of a possible strike even to the point of placing billboards announcing the same at three of our major cities.

I have been pleasantly surprised and gratified by the vast outpouring of support from our flight attendants, other company employees as well as all the pilots of other airlines who walked our picket line with us. We cannot thank you all enough and I know that we will return the favour when you need us.

I have also been appalled at the breathtaking arrogance, stupidity, ignorance, and cowardice of you management suckups who criticised our painful decision to strike. To those dimwits I say this.

Believe it or not we are all at least as smart and sane as you so give us credit for having thought long and hard before we made the difficult decision to strike. There is not time enough to explain the shabby, degrading treatment that management calmly and deliberately administered to us over the last 3 years with the calculated goal of destroying our morale in order to impose a concessionary contract that would have reduced our wages and made us at will employees at a time when the company was making massive profits (over 100 million USD last year)and planning a major expansion.

To those who say we agreed to our terms and conditions and should abide by them forever consider this. Management threw that last contract away with their concessionary proposals. They did not agree to begin negotiating off our last contract until shortly before the strike deadline. That last contract was agreed upon at a time when our flying was vastly different than it is now. The compensation package was fair enough for day, domestic flying into secondary airports with comfortable turn times and one or two legs per day. It proved woefully inadaquate to compensate for 3 or 4 leg days with 30 minute turns operating at night, over water, on the back side of the clock into international caribbean, central, and south american destinations with the challenges of active volcanos, high altitude airports, language dificulties, inadaquate alternates and the support limitations of a bare bones carrier like spirit.

Do what you like with your own career but as far as your negative opinions on this great pilot group who took a brave and necessary stand for our careers, just shut your mouths and crawl back under your rocks. You disgust me.

Merlyn

thanks for confirming that the pilots warned the passengers ( not self loading freight...I wish someone would drop that ).

Like I said in my post about getting home for Christmas...buyer/flyer beware.

While the circumstances are different, I remind everyone that the GERMANS warned everyone in New York with a LARGE AD in the Newspapers basically saying that the RMS Lusitania ( ship during World War 1) would be sunk by military action and not to board her.

YET over 1000 people boarded and sadly , died.

When a pilot group warns you of a strike, you better look for other methods of transportation.

Awh, the poor babies.:ugh:
Now it's 'overworked' as well as 'underpaid.
So, now this extra pay will somehow make 'language difficulties':rolleyes: somehow better?

Oh yes, that extra pay and benefits...what are they, and how compared to the previous last company offer?
Or, as I suspect, all this bravado is so much ALPO horsepucky.

I don't believe the international flying had anything to do with the strike. They were underpaid and fixed it the only way they could. Going on strike. :D

Well for one thing. In the past contract you could be schedued to depart at 8:00PM and land at 8:00AM after a few legs.Then go and fly a trans con or a 7 hour red eye turn again at 8:00PM that same night. Over and over again. Also no more multi red eye legs. i.e.2200 departure LAX to ORD to FLL for a 1400 arrival . Just to go back out and fly that night at 2300. New contract this will not happen. This is a QOL issue that was needed.This is just one of many things fixed in the new contract. Oh yea and more pay$$. Sounds good to me.I won't ask any questions to any of you ALPA /Union pilot bashers out there. Because your opinion means NOTHING! This is a Spirit Pilots battle.
:)

411A, may I suggest you take your medication before posting?

I agree with Merlin,

I have operated on both sides of the pond, under FAR's and CAP371...

What the FAA allows should be illegal. There is no rest in the US rest requirements... And oddly enough, sometimes you can fly a lot further with an unaugmented crew under the UK rules, so its not about just rest... With REAL rest can come real productivity...

Because the government refuses to mandate proper rest for pilots, unfortunately its up to the unions to obtain it.

Cheers
Wino

Considering 'suggest' is mis-spelled, nevertheless...no medication is needed, just the facts from the latest contract ...versus...the latest company offer.
Unless, of course, said pilots are afraid to post same....:rolleyes::ugh:

Spirit captains will cap at 185 per hr. I forget the FO pay but with signing agreement will do well this year. I think Spirit did well on getting pay for everybody. Good job guys.

185 an hour...that's damn good...though just before 9/11, our contract would have a 737=300 captain at about 220 an hour....we lost that with huge pay cuts as everyone knows...

BUT HERE IS THE QUESTION:

how much should a 737NG captain get at the top of the longevity scale /hourly, with pension, health, vacation, and other benefits? I am using the 737NG as sort of a standard...767 would be more...EMB190 would be less etc.

how much do we think WE are worth?

Who cares? Management, the traveling public and the general public could give a damn what we think we are worth. We are coldly looked upon as a unfortunate cost of doing business and are paid based on what we negotiate.

Management coldly looks at the costs involved to increase our pay, the costs to replace us with other pilots or those of another holding company, or the costs involved with the liquidation of the company. What our perceptions our when we look in the mirror are not a concern for them and I don't blame them. We also shouldn't flatter ourselves when we get managments close attention. We're nothing more than a daily expense decison like that of buying a jet or a box of toilet paper.

Yup.
Sadly, many line pilots go through their entire career without realising these very basic facts.:ugh:

Totally agree 411. And, when we are flying these incredibly expensive (per hour) aircraft, what we are paid doesn't even show on the bottom line. Double it or work for nothing, it makes no real difference to the total cost of doing business. But put one in the dirt......

If you are flying a 402 or Beech 99/1900 then the hourly rate of the pilot is significant - say you are making 40 dollars an hour. 19 Passengers on the 1900. Reasonable pay. 300 passengers....say what?

We have steadily lost ground in the 40 years I have been in this business. I could buy a NICE new car with the before tax Captain MONTHLY salary when I started and the airlines had smaller airplanes. We worked 70 hours a month, and had rules about how we were treated.

Sadly, we gave it all away. And, the incredible thing is - it didn't help the companies at all.

it's ironic, considering management are the ones who can be easily replaced, who make much more than the workers who are directly involved in getting the plane from point A to B.

You are but a very small cog in quite a rather large wheel...pilots, dime a dozen....First Officers especially.
Very experienced Captains...the exception.
The sooner pilots realise this, the better.
Some never do of course, and can be wound up like a cheap watch by ALPO etc.

The airline marketing manager is far more important...no bums in seats, pilots and ground engineers... not needed.

let me re phrase:

how much are you willing to go on strike for? use 737ng as a guide or any plane you like.

if SPIRIT gets 185 an hour...should American get 220? for example

Without pilots there is no airline...we need mechanics, dispatchers, fa's and the myriad of people to make things work...but without pilots everyone else can stay home.

PTH,

As 411 says...there are always pilots available...the Marketing and Financial guys in the Ivory Tower are the ones who make the whole thing work...

Like it or not, that's the way it is...

And BTW...a 737NG Capt at AA probably has more seniority than their counterpart at Spirit...

AA caps out at 12 years like Spirit so longevity beyond that doesn't affect pay. Yes, if Spirit gets 185 AA will get 220. AA just needs to be released to cooling off like Spirit was. We have been trying to reach this point as long as Spirit. AA going on strike will have a much bigger impact so the RLA will be pushed to it's max to delay cooling off. However as soon as they will eventually have to AMR will get serious about negotiating. They won't until this happens as we have seen.

As pilots we need to ignore the few posters previous to this post that say pilots are a dime a dozen so just take what they give you. They said this before the Spirit strike. Thank God the Spirit pilots didn't listen to them.

I was walking the picket line the night of AA's strike which Clinton stopped after 20 minutes. I expect the same thing will happen when we strike again. The positive part of that strike was that we made the company negotiate a fair contract.

EasyGlider might be excused for not knowing many managers then...:rolleyes:
Sadly, many pilots think the entire airline world revolves around them (and their kind)...this might be true if there was a 'shortage' however, there isn't and highly likely never will be...therefore, pilots are a dime a dozen, with some exceptions IE: very experienced Captains, TRE/IRE's etc.
Just look at a few airlines in Euroland...they wave the possibility of a pilot job and are inundated with applications from folks that will actually pay the company for the 'privilege'.
Gotta laugh at this nonsense...:}:}

411A
Check any bar on 36th street, Miami. :ok:

No 411A, I know plenty of managers in many different industries including aviation. was one myself many years ago! I am just amazed how you find the time to rant on pprune virtually continuously as demonstrated with your 7600--yes seven thousand six hundred posts!!!!!

So come on old boy, let us in on your secret, how do you find the time? The managers I know put in 10 -12 hour days not including traveling. The last thing they would want to do after that is bang out seven thousand posts on here!

My guess is that you are in fact managing no more than a single ac operation in arizona with maybe a seneca??? maybe doing night mail??? am I close?? You certainly have failed to reach a position in any of the legacy carriers as demonstrated by your constant vitrol aimed particularly at A.A pilots. So come on, how many times have you been rejected by them? or indeed any of the others, (Delta, United,North West etc. etc.)

What in fact you are is a very sad, bitter, twisted soul with literally nothing else to fill your existence other than knocking individuals on here. If it was me, I'd be reaching for the 12 guage!!!

Do a forum search, EG, and you will find out.
A heavy jet Captain for over thirty five years...how about you?

PS: attacking the poster is always considered poor form, especially when you have nothing of value regarding the posted subject.:rolleyes:

Looking at the replies to those of us who do not agree with the Spirit Airlines pilot strike, the comments, anger, sarcasm, inuendo and the like worries me as to see these childish scribblings by so called professional pilots, who must exercise constraint, calm logic thinking with quick decisive decision making, look like they are demonstrating anything but.
If you have the time to scribe comments as such while some of us are attempting to have a reasoned debate, certainly concerns me getting on an aircraft with attitudes demonstrated. God help them when it goes wrong up their, will they spit their dummies out in equal vitriolic manner?

If the Spirit crews have indeed won their case then very best of luck, have many years of safe flying.
AFOS

It would seem to be "Situation Normal" at Spirit again:

Spirit Airlines: 'Check Out The Oil On Our Beaches!' (PHOTO)

I have no reason to believe that 411 isn't what he says he is. Now, I may disagree with his views, but I believe he has been and may currently be a wideboy (L1011) captain.

let us all say who we are and we can believe it...I was brought up to think my word is my bond. I hope you are all the same way.

411A doesn't have a high opinion of airline pilots and loves management. I personally don't think he is who he says he is. He seems very angry at pilots wanting to further their careers. He seems to know pretty much what is going on in the industry but don't believe his BS.

I'm with protectthehornet on this... I may not agree with 411A's views but I reckon he is indeed a L-1011 Captain, maybe even Chief Pilot, for an outfit perhaps based in Africa?? In any event his insight into the line pilot psyche is spot on, especially the dog eat dog mentality.....

Do the math. This guy is at least 69 or 70 and it's unlikey that he is flying anything these days. The fact that he has enjoyed many years on the L1011 is nice but that alone does not make him an authority on anything beyond that. Most of it is in his own imagination.:E

I think Spirit pilots and for that matter most aviators have taken it on the chin for to long.....Thanks for fighting back

spooky

the best pilot I ever flew with was in his 60's...he flew planes that aren't flown anymore except in airshows.

this guy taught me more about flying in five minutes than I learned in years in other venues.

so don't disparage an older pilot who flew or flies a superior type of airplane like the L1011.

now, I don't agree with 411 and some of his views, but flying one of the airliners ahead of its time, by a company synonymous with incredible airplanes is NOTHING to sneeze at.

But 411 and I don't agree about pilots...oh well

I'll back PTH on 411A's experience...I almost had a chance to work for him on the 727 years ago in the Far East...As to his views, I tend to agree more than disagree....but not always...

Yup, I tell it like it is, not how some (many) would like it to be.
Most (but not all) airline pilots today are at the mercy of the company, they call the shots, the pilots either accept...or do without.
Yes, ALPO (etc) win a few battles, however, the ultimate facts are...the pilots play second fiddle to the company.
This is especially true in Euroland, where the pay-to-fly idea has caught on in a major way.
Silly fools...a sucker born every minute.
However, a superb idea from the airlines perspective...what a deal:}
I can see math was not Spooky2's major.:E

Your full of it 411A. If you were flying the 1649A Starliner when you told me you were, unless you were only eighteen at the time, your surely over 65 these days. Nothing wrong with that but your stories just don't add up. :}

PTH, Nothing was meant to demean 411A's TriStar time. I only have around 4,000 in it so a mere mortal like myself is probably not worthy of any comments. Having 20,000 in an airplane that is not in service anymore is meaningless, unless you plan to write a book about it