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Near midair over SFO
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I've seen two different reports...the trouble is that the area I think that is involved is all part of the airspace formerly known as a TCA.
So, was the single engine plane cleared into the TCA/B airspace or not? And we should all look out the window. I've seen one report the single as a C182 and one as an Aeronca champ. |
Missing from the news report is the substantive information issued by the NTSB, i.e.
At about 11:15 a.m. PDT on March 27, the crew of United Airlines Flight 889, a B777-222 (N216UA) destined for Beijing, China, carrying 251 passengers and a crew of 17, was cleared to takeoff from San Francisco International Airport (SFO) on runway 28L and climb to an initial altitude of 3,000 feet. The first officer, who was flying the aircraft, reported that after the landing gear was retracted and the jet was at an altitude of about 1,100 feet, [when] the tower controller reported traffic at his 1 o'clock position. Immediately following the controller's advisory, the airplane's traffic collision avoidance system (TCAS) issued an audible alert of "TRAFFIC TRAFFIC." The pilots saw a light high wing airplane, an Aeronca 11AC (N9270E), in a hard left turn traveling from their 1 o'clock to 3 o'clock position. The first officer pushed the control column forward to level the airplane. Both crew members reported seeing only the underside of the Aeronca as it passed to within an estimated 200-300 feet of the 777. TCAS then issued an "ADJUST VERTICAL SPEED" alert, followed by a "DESCEND, DESCEND" alert. The first officer complied and the flight continued to Beijing without further incident. |
Class-B ends at the shoreline on the pacific side of the peninsula (or at least it used to), not very far from the departure end of 28 L/R. I don't recall exactly, but I remember you could fly at about 700 ft as long as you remained west of the shoreline and be clear of Class B by a few hundred feet. It was very common to see planes following the shoreline, especially on weekends. On 120.5 I once heard a Virgin pilot complain about a traffic alert during takeoff to the tower controller, only to be told that the traffic was outside of Class B and there was nothing they could do about it.
It sounds like this plane did bust Bravo. |
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yes but
our intrepid united pilot was at 1100 feet when tower called him and he pushed forward on the stick with the tcas...
I've flown the coastal route in pipers as a GA pilot and ''shot the gap'' as an airline pilot...until the actual position is displayed on a chart, I think they were darn close to the airport when this happened...and not near the pacific shoreline. there is a mountain nearby on the departure, mount san bruno ( you might see the words : south san francisco the industrial city, on it). hill all around. 1100 feet is pretty darn low...I guess, at the worst they were two miles off the departure end. |
Shortly after United's Flight 889 took off, an air traffic controller warned the pilot of a single-engine Cessna 182 to "maintain visual separation" from the larger plane - which was climbing at 500 feet - and to "pass behind that aircraft," according to a recording of the incident at liveatc.net
If this is true, it sounds like the Single Engine was in contact with ATC and presumably cleared to be where he was. |
So it was a TA and not an RA. Doesn't sound too dramatic to me!
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If the GA guy was talking to Oakland center, then he HAD to be under positive control. Maybe he was doing the 'bay tour'.....or transitioning to the GA airport south of SFO, whose name totally escapes me as I type :sad:(I'm sure that PTH remembers it). :ok:
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I remember that VFR traffic in Bravo was usually coming or going to Palo Alto or San Carlos towards Downtown San Francisco. If there were no departures from 28 L/R, your clearance into Bravo included instructions to remain southwest of 101 at all times. If there were departures from 28 L/R the clearance was to overfly the field. I think in both cases the altitude to hold was 3000ft.
Controllers were usually pretty good at keeping everyone far apart. |
ADJUST VERTICAL SPEED" alert, followed by a "DESCEND, DESCEND |
So it was a TA and not an RA. Doesn't sound too dramatic to me! TCAS then issued an "ADJUST VERTICAL SPEED" alert, followed by a "DESCEND, DESCEND" alert. The first officer complied and the flight continued to Beijing without further incident. |
.or transitioning to the GA airport south of SFO, whose name totally escapes me as I type The highest points through the gap are about 600', San Bruno mountain is about 1200' |
LiveATC has audio of the incident here. The Cessna (not Aeronca ... not sure how the NTSB got the N-number wrong) based out of PAO was transitioning southbound west of the 101 at 1500 on a bravo clearance (very typical on a bay tour). The controller started to point the traffic out to each other, but by the time he told the Cessna to maintain visual separation, the 777 crew was already maneuvering to respond to the TCAS RA.
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The http://liveatc.net tape(s) appear(s) to have a glitch or two in them, but it is quite clear the lady flying the B777 - UA889 was not impressed. The controller remained calm and quite professional, continuing on handling traffic. "That set off the TCAS ......", and "We need to talk!", was her final comment. Daresay the NTSB will do that on her behalf.
mm43 |
Thank you Ion Berkeley!! San Carlos was the one I was trying to remember...and SHOULD have considering how often I flew into there! :ugh:
The AP report of this is showing a picture of a 73, and then talking about a triple 7!! :mad: |
Quote: "The Cessna pilot confirmed that the United jet "is in sight" and that the smaller plane would "pass behind him."
But moments later, as the jet reached 1,500 feet, its automated traffic collision avoidance system issued an audible warning of, "Traffic traffic." That's when the pilot and first officer saw the Cessna making a hard left turn to the right of the airliner, the safety board said. The first officer promptly leveled off the jet, and both crew members watched as the Cessna passed 1,500 feet to the side and 200 to 300 feet overhead, officials said." Seems there are two different reports. |
well, its already been answered...yes San CArlos or Palo Alto...I've flown them both.
I knew a777 girl pilot at united...I wonder...but my old computer can't do that ATC site. anyway...looks like ATC should have been a bit faster on the pointout. and for some of you who don't know, "101" refers to the freeway on the ground and an easy reference point for visual/pilotage. The same freeway goes all the way to the LA area where it becomes the ventura freeway. (with some gaps in freeway status) I remind all pilots how difficult this departure is with terrain and very heavy airplanes with high deck angles. |
Wasn't there a midair collision between a PSA 727 and a small aircraft near SFO in 1977 or 1978?
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TA or RA
The female pilot can be heard confirming a "strong TCAS message" later on during the recording!
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Seat62K,
Think that was San Diego. |
In the past I have instructed out of San Carlos for years, and flown that stretch countless times.
Common ATC clearance is to remain west of the 101 freeway with an altitude restriction. The GA aircraft had a Bravo clearance if he was in that area. The other route southbound would be to hug the coastline and dip below 700 feet (if my memory serves me right), but that is so far north of the airport that any airliners climbing out would not be a factor. I usually tell my students that the safest place in busy airspace is directly over the airport as most planes are usually near the ground. I've flown directly over SFO a number of times to stay well away from arriving and departing traffic; just had to keep an eye on a go-around. Listening to ATC, having a mental picture of what is going on, and anticipating ahead of the aircraft sure helps, It is busy airspace, but the controllers are often reluctant to give a Bravo clearance if it is too crowded. Good thing nothing happened and it can act as a reminder to GA pilots to be careful when in busy airspace. |
Only if the Cessna had a working TCAS, would the UA jet's TCAS be able to issue an RA. :ooh:
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Only if the Cessna had a working TCAS, would the UA jet's TCAS be able to issue an RA. |
Wouldn't a mode C transponder be required, rather than just mode A for the RA to be issued?
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Legal Tender - Yes. SFO class B airspace (and all class B airspace in the States) have a 20 mile mode C 'veil'. No mode C, no flying within these areas. :)
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Thirty mile.
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bearfoil
I've heard of emmy...but knew eileen. and to the world, I have a feeling that too much is being made of this situation. the GA plane turned, the tower warned and TCAS sounded ( and yes, you get an RA even if the other plane doesn't have TCAS...but it does need mode C on and operating...even without mode C you would get a traffic advisory) It is especially important for all planes to have their transponder on with mode C...unless specifically directed otherwise by ATC. It is also important to have all lights on for increased visibility. Initially, it sounds like the GA plane had a classb/tca clearance and that ATC just was late in warning the 777.. Is that everyone else's take? I also think that the news media is making too big a deal out of this...now if they wanted one to report I remember when: fillin the blank |
worthwhile to note also you may get TCAS warnings when 'standard' separation exists.
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I'm pleased to see I'm not the only one who misremembers. Hope I don't screw this up:
1978 San Diego: PSA 727-200 on base leg to SAN overtakes C-172 in pattern. All lost. The quiet cockpit below 10K feet is one result. 1986 Cerritos: AeroMexico DC9-30 on long final to LAX collides with Piper Cherokee, reportedly at 6,500 feet. All lost. TCAS is one result. GB |
Graybeard, affirm on both; time/place/aircraft. The Cerritos crash is about a mile from where I am sitting as I write this.
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and to the world, I have a feeling that too much is being made of this situation. It must not be very pleasant to get an RA when low and slow and then to see a light aircraft closer than you wish for. |
Seat62K,
It was San Diego. |
Checkout this website
1. Go to View Live Radar Tracks at SFO
2. Run Java application. 3. Pause 4. Change date and time to 03/27/10 and 11:13PDT 5. Press play and watch it all unfold. The height readout from the UAL jumps around a little but you get a good indication of what went on. |
Correction to Live Track
Doesnt work very well with Firefox use IE instead
When you get to the SFO web site, wait a bit for the little airplane to appear on the left, then click it. (that is the 'java applcation') Wait some more for the map to start. Maximize it to full screen. Click the 'Playback Control' box lower right and PAUSE The time should be set at 03/27/2010 11:13 not 11:18 Select the parameters you want like altitude, type etc. Click PLAY You might notice a few minutes later N227UA and N1145M also had a close encounter of the 'We need to talk' variety. Like this is Dr Phil. This thread is so rife with wrong information, and we blame the media for bad aircraft reporting ? |
I finally heard the radio transmissions involved. yes the " we gotta talk" sounded more like a romantic breakup than what I would have said:
I would have said: we are reporting a tcas evasive maneuver and a near mid air collision. sadly, I can't view the radar track. also, the san diego bit was a 727 on final for runway 27 while the cessna had just finished a practice ILS to runway9 ouch. always be looking for traffic. |
SFO VFR Class B Clearance
The typical SFO VFR Class B Clearance for VFR traffic traveling Northwest or Southeast bound is to stay west and south of Hwy 101 at or below 2000 ft. MSL. At this altitude, we're talking to SFO Tower. Above 2,500 ft. to 3,000 ft. we usually talk to NORCAL Approach.
Hwy 101 is the road that circles the left of the field in the top two photos. Chamois Moon - San Francisco International Airport The 28s are the runways running lower right to left. The type of small aircraft is still in question. I have a Helio Courier, however, SFO tower often refers to me as a Cessna since it's the typical small high wing aircraft. Aeroncas and Helio Couriers are not as well known, but they both also have high wings. When I transit the area, I'm ready for anything. I've been asked to descend to 1,500 ft. for opposing VFR traffic, or to do a 720 so that traffic can clear the 28s, or turn left and cross mid field passing behind the departing heavy. The trick is to listen carefully and obey instantly. The system usually works well. |
highway 101
Only ever had class bravo clearance once through SFO. 28L/R active for arrivals and 01L/R for departures. On the return leg south we passed over the extended centreline for 28L/R at 2000ft and was asked to make a right turn to get clear of this line. Plus we were asked to keep highway 101 off to our left (you can hear the atc comms 0:30secs into the video).
YouTube - C172 San Francisco Bay Tour |
N9870E is a Cessna 182 R. But the radar track had United as 216ua.
Robert Campbell. very nice pix. Yours? Isn't that Otis Spunkmeyer's DC-3? |
My Photos
I was a Capt. on the Spunkmeyer DC-3s for 4 years. It was a part time gig. I kept my aerial photo biz going at the same time.
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