tcas1Are you for real? The Air France accident needs to find data and voice recorders before they can truly state what happened there, in terms of culpability.

But how can you pigeon-hole the BA 777 accident, with this 737 incident? The BA accident, although investigations are not yet complete, was apparently caused by a technical/design problem (fuel-oil heat exchanger), yet you seem content to compare it to this wilfully negligent Eurocypria 737 incident, which is compounded by attempts to cover up what happened. I find that offensive!

The Eurocypria crew should be suspended immediately, and once their actions have been investigated (and right now they appear to be very serious allegations of endangering the aircraft and occupants, and covering up afterwards), they should face the appropriate punishment. Whatever that punishment is, it is likely to be heavy.

I think a lot of you are missing the point!

This is not, or at least it shouldn't be a pi:mad:ing contest about judging others and solving accidents.

tcas1, after reading your comment, which to me completely misses the point, I would just like to know, if you've learnt in your aviation career to accept responsibility for your screw ups?

Maybe I'm just way off here, but I don't know how the hell you drive an a/c-or half of it- through the grass/dirt and not have an incline that something was "off"; to at least get you to go out and "investigate" a little?!

His dudeness,
I don't think an FO's capability to do a walk around is at debate.
What seems interesting, at the very least, is that one of the players involved in a booboo volunteers to go do it.

Ethics, unlike procedures, cannot be taught.

OK. Let me make myself clear.
By reference to the AF, BA and KLM accidents what i am trying to point out is that accidents can occur to the best airlines and pilots.
Nobody had the right to judge until all facts are analysed. Never rush into assumptions and buring someone or the airline involved. The point is to learn from peoples mistakes and procedures improved to avoid the same thing happening again.
As for taking responsibility for what I,or anyone does it is not a matter of only punishing the person involved but obviously so others can learn from our mistakes.
Finally something for everyone to think about and again not trying to take the part of the crew's lawyer. Do you really think that the crew involved realised the severity of the incident and then stayed on board and deadheaded to WAW after doing a PDI themselves? I would like to think they didn't.
And as far as the minima involved ,flying into poland myself time and time again we get info for airports where vis given is 1500m and rvr 350.Not that it cannot happen but a bit confusing and misleading.
Finally something else for everyone to think about is that by doing some furhter research into the incident you find out that a LOT a/c landed only few mins before the incident.

It would be interesting to find out then what, if any, RVR reading was given by the tower to the LOT aircraft. :E

Having spent most of yesterday trudling around Europe which involved 3 Autolands down to 300m, it IS inconcievable that the crew would not have realised that they had left the "hard stuff".

An RVR of 350m is nothing like an RVR of 75m - that may sound like a stupid statement, but the point is IT WOULD HAVE BEEN PLAINLY OBVIOUS to the crew concerned that the event hadn't gone quite to plan!!

On the information given so far this would appear to be an act of wilful negligence in carrying out the approach in the first place and perhaps criminal in not entering it in the Techlog and actively trying to cover it up. Did they seriously think they would get away with it?

Perhaps the more serious question is why do crews, on occasion, go completely against the rule book? I was told many years ago that if ever I was facing a scenario which was "pushing the envelope" of acceptable practice, I should picture, in my head, me with my best "courtroom voice" justifying why I did what I did to the management or even a Jury.

The usual pressure is time. Does it really matter that much? Is it so important that you are prepared to put your passengers, aircraft, licence at risk? Being late/diverting is a pain in the ar$e - but it's a lot more palatable than the other options which WILL eventually catch up with you. If you got away with it once you're likely to "push" again...may be a bit more this time. And then you push.... and push.... and push..... and you end up sticking the mains off the side doing an illegal autoland...... and then you try to cover it up. :ugh:

Fly safe everyone.

A4

tcas1,
Fair enough-but, wouldn't the prudent thing to do, be to abandon the approach at the bottom? Surely, we've all come down the slope only to have to go around, after arriving at DH?!
And yes, I did call you Shirley!!:E

Again, I don't think anyone is "judging" the crew on starting or flying the approach; at least I see no problem there.
What is at debate is how they dealt with the aftermath.

Tcas1,

Now you become nasty.

Here are the METARS:

EPKT 092130Z VRB01KT 0400 R27/0500N FG VV001 07/07 Q1010
EPKT 092100Z 24002KT 0100 R27/0350N FG VV001 07/07 Q1010
EPKT 092030Z 28002KT 0100 R27/0350N FG VV001 07/07 Q1010
EPKT 092000Z 00000KT 0100 R27/0350N FG VV001 07/07 Q1010
EPKT 091930Z 21002KT 130V250 0050 R27/0350N FG VV001 07/07 Q1010
EPKT 091900Z 23003KT 180V260 0050 R27/0300N FG VV001 07/07 Q1009
EPKT 091830Z 13001KT 0050 R27/0300N FG VV001 08/08 Q1009
EPKT 091800Z 13002KT 0100 R27/0350N FG VV001 08/08 Q1009
EPKT 091730Z 13004KT 0100 R27/0300N FG VV001 08/08 Q1009
EPKT 091700Z 12004KT 0300 R27/0350D FG VV001 08/08 Q1009

What is it, that makes you think that is specially "Polish" in them.???

You have steady and continuous RVR of 350m for over 4 hours,
with fog and 100ft ceiling.


And this is exactly why such incident should be treated with all available severity.

The LOT guys went away with it (maybe).
(You don't know their aircraft equipment and crew skills.) ;)

Nevertheless Polish CAA has insisted on ATC to report any and all landings
below minima at Polish airports since the incidents become more and more
frequent. (See the former one in EPKT.)

Also recently Just Culture committee was established by the CAA allowing
pilots or any other person involved to report anonymously about the incidents
they witnessed.

This is the "old boys" culture of cover ups and
"don't puke into your own nest" that makes the fight with
such reckless flying practices so difficult.
And also gives the management of the airlines an argument to put pressure
on the crews to fly below minima, because they can always say,
"Look, you will get away with it, everybody does".

And the incident we discuss here is a perfect example of such cover up mentality.

[QUOTE]You don't know their aircraft equipment and crew skills/QUOTE]

Do you know? Can you please explain to all of the non judgemental members?

Last time I've checked, Katowice had CAT I ILS. Lack of centerline lights indicates no significant change since then. Shooting CAT I ILS with RVR below 550m is illegal, for reasons that have once more become painfully obvious.

So the crew made high speed runway excursion and went dead-heading on the same aeroplane, without maintenance checking the aeroplane.

Never mind the legal consequences, they'll have hard time explaining the occurrence at next medical renewal.

Wouldn't the airport have to be certified for anything more than CAT1, besides aircrew and aircraft?
In which case the LOT plane would be "discovered" (if it did land as said), ironically not b/c of their own doing!

It's all good, unless we're talking safety of flight stuff.

Just to confirm: KTW is CAT I., minimum is RVR 550. They do not even have an LVP (actually they have one prepared since months but it's not signed by one of their 2000 authority, agency or bureau) therefore even the take-off minima is 400m.
Poland does not have a single CAT III runway for 10+ airports with considerable traffic and population approx. 40 million. But at least their weather is s...ty every autumn/winter. :)

So if i was ptkay and rushed into conclusions, the LOT a/c landed below minima and then covered up their wrong doing by not reporting it!!! Thats criminal... lets suck the crew and blacklist the airline!!!!

(You don't know their aircraft equipment and crew skills.)

I love your comment ptkay.Its actually the most ammusing thing i read on this thread. So let me get it right. The LOT crew are extremely skilled and experienced in landing below minima and have equipment that allows them to do that!!!???!!! AMAZING!!!!

No tcas1, it's probably one of LOT's old boys that the Polish CAA is trying put some sense to!

[QUOTE]Poland does not have a single CAT III runway for 10+ airports with considerable traffic and population approx. 40 million/QUOTE]

And to add: The only CAT II runway at EPWA was downgraded to CAT I for 3 weeks in November!
Where do all these guys land when foggy weather comes in? In BERLIN???

Does KTW have ATIS??

If not, do you know what the RVRs passed to the crews of either aircraft were? Are you sure that they were the ones shown in the metars above?

No, they don't.

But I would be very surprised if TWR would pass anything else than
listed in the quoted METARS, by such constat conditions.

lventes,

no, I don't know either, and this comment was meant "tongue in cheek".
(I edited it with some emoticon to make it clear.)

;)

Tcas1,

I am happy I was able to amuse you.

As I mentioned above, the remark was meant "tongue in cheek",
which obviously didn't come through.

Tcas1, I fully agree with you.

Please, kindly read the whole of my post, where I express my concern
about rising frequency of such breaches of rules and suggest
introducing Just Culture.

I will quote myself for your comfort:

So why wouldn't you, anonymously, report the LOT crew to the Polish CAA,
to do the matter just.

Or you rather wouldn't, just to stick together with your chaps???

Levantes,

you are right, the situation in Poland is really critical regarding CAT.
And you are right, the only choice is sometimes Berlin, although
usually POZ has much better weather than KK, KT, or WA.

Regarding the LOT old boys, if not tcas1, then maybe you will
report the violation through the Just Culture scheme to Polish CAA,
to finally stop this "accident waiting to happen".

BTW: on DEC07 32th meeting of the Provisional Council ( PC) of the EUROCONTROL took place in Brussels.
Among others the Safety Regulation Commission reported on introduction
of "Just Culture" and once again stressed the importance of this tool
to improve flight safety.

[QUOTE]But I would be very surprised if TWR would pass anything else than
listed in the quoted METARS, by such constat conditions./QUOTE]

My friend ptkay you are again assuming and jumping to conclusions!
As you see the METAR's you uploaded are 30 min apart!
I would be a very unhappy man if I was in holding pattern over KTW waiting for the weather to improve and TWR gave me weather updates every 30min!:ugh:
I ASSUME (I'm stating it!!!!) that there is RVR indicator in the TWR giving readings to aircraft!;)
Its easy to judge the weather conditions constant NOW but at real time nothing is constant at these conditions.