United GRU-ORD Divert to MIA to Offload Purser
 

Yet another test of the 'modern' view of captain's authority?

United flight diverts after captain and flight attendant argue

Avionews

Where's the problem here?....

Did he say there was a problem?

Sounds like Rumour or News to me..or does this sort of thing happen every day?

Second time today.

United GRU-ORD Divert to MIA to Offload Purser
 

Since it appears like there are no open threads on this subject, here's as new one...

Picked up this on another forum:

A longhaul divert due to crew issues is extremely rare in my experience.

Over a decade ago a Delta MD-11 flightcrew on an Atlanta-Seoul flight diverted to Portland, Oregon after deciding that they were 'fatigued'. The union and the company were battling over crew rest facilities and the pilots had a little tent that they pitched in front of the pax to sleep in. As I recall, the captain was near retirement and the matter was handled administratively. If there are any RD's left here they may have more insight.

I've heard of a flight attendant being offloaded at an outstation for failing to properly greet the captain when he boarded 'his' aircraft. It was in the Middle East and egos tend to be ramped up a little there from what I've seen. However, I can't think of another divert caused by such authority issues.

We gave away the respect
 

We gave away the respect
You never notice the most of the time many cabin crew, ground crew and the ticket counters are wearing the same uniform of the pilots with epaulets? .
So many times , never the less I am Captain, I get confuse to who is who..
in any case we as pilots should start to respect our self first of all and than pretend respect from others .
Lets do not be ashamed to be called Captain if we have that title.
Lets do not remove our epaulets from our pilot shirt immediately after landing just because we do not wanna appears like superiors to others.
Lets pretend to be treated with respect in any way .
It start within our self.
If a pilot ground an airplane we shall not fly the same airplane just because we wanna show that we are better than others .
If an air company do not treat pilots with respect we should burn the ground around them let their airplane sit on the ground and see how they are going to change attitude.
Do not allow some HR,PR, that do not even know what is an airplane to decide if you are a pilot that fit for their company or not.
See how different the aviation world will be.
Riccardo Volante

"We gave away the respect
You never notice the most of the time many cabin crew, ground crew and the ticket counters are wearing the same uniform of the pilots with epaulets? .
So many times , never the less I am Captain, I get confuse to who is who..
in any case we as pilots should start to respect our self first of all and than pretend respect from others .
Lets do not be ashamed to be called Captain if we have that title.
Lets do not remove our epaulets from our pilot shirt immediately after landing just because we do not wanna appears like superiors to others.
Lets pretend to be treated with respect in any way .
It start within our self.
If a pilot ground an airplane we shall not fly the same airplane just because we wanna show that we are better than others .
If an air company do not treat pilots with respect we should burn the ground around them let their airplane sit on the ground and see how they are going to change attitude.
Do not allow some HR,PR, that do not even know what is an airplane to decide if you are a pilot that fit for their company or not.
See how different the aviation world will be."


Did you even read the last paragraph in post #5 :rolleyes:

Captain his a captain
 

Captain his a captain .Many country around the world as issue for ATPL licensing without citizenship due to the legal power of the Captains.
If hierarchy is an issue well may be the job is not the right one for some people.
R.V.

Captain
 

There is only one person, that is responsible for ALL, The CAPTAIN, I have seen it many times, Thanks to the Captain to get the argumentive person of the flight, he /she was most likely not doing a good job for the company. And if there is any punitive action against the Captain. We should all stand in for the Captain's the right to control the operation in a professional manner. How about once and for all a stand down to get this industry back on track. World Wide!!!!:)

Am I seeing a different story? I must be. :ugh:

.....well I was always told that respect is something you earn by the example you set - it rarely comes in a box with a set of stripes.....

....now something about this tells me that the problem seems to lie in the left hand seat here. Would a seemingly trivial altercation with a Purser over a Gen Dec be reason to divert an aircraft? No suggestion that the Purser had turned violent. Maybe a quiet chat on the Jetway might have been more appropriate.:hmm:

...anyway, where is 414A when you need some forthright opinion on Captaincy styles?:}

My reading of it is the captain didn't care to wait for the purser to round up whatever resource needed (someone to monitor the area?) to shove the piece of paper through the door. Instead he chose to blow his top over a trifle. Glad I wasn't on that plane.

Well, if a Captain isn't happy with the Purser, he/she can release her/him of all flight duties anytime.

If this would justify a diversion....

To me - no.

Everyone pass their CRM course?:eek:

youll find it was 411A

As part of our document checks before departure either to or from the US, we need to see the General Declaration to ensure that is correct. After reviewing the document, I sign it and give it back to the Senior Cabin Crewmember so she/he can hand it over to the ground handler upon arrival.

As for the behavior of this captain, on the surface, it appears that all his oars were definitely not in the water.

I can't believe that anyone would divert a flight, especially and international flight, becuase a request was not complied with. I can't wait to hear the true spin on this event.

Respect for Captain ?

747 Freighter Captain offered a choice of crew meal for the next day, chose not to have crew menu as offered, could he please just have a roast beef sandwich ? No problem he was told.

Next day despatcher telephoned by ATC and asked status of freighter ? Gone said despatcher, departed about 30 mins ago. No said tower, still on the ramp. Despatcher attended aircraft, plugged in a headset and talked to crew, gotta problem ? Yes said the Captain, I haven't got my roast beef sandwich !

True story, many, many years ago.

Why would a bothered cpt depart and divert when the gen dec signature shall happen before departure? There seems to be another story here.

Maybe a case of the straw and the camels back ?

Something started between them earlier in the trip and then niggle, niggle, niggle, pause, explode .........:eek:

I recognise the pattern from when I am not on good diplomatic relations with Mrs Mac and she wants to wind me up, she lights the blue touch paper and then stands back all innocent when the explosion happens.

Just a thought..

411A is right here, with his considered opinion.

Seems to me the UAL Captain was just a tad, over the top.

In over thirty years of airline flying, I have off-loaded an entire cabin crew (except the cabin supervisor) only one time.
At RUH, the cabin supervisor told me that the CC were being totally uncooperative.
They were offloaded, pronto, and replaced by those on standby at the RUH station.
I submitted my report, the cabin supervisor submitted hers...the malcontent CC were terminated, forthwith.

I witnessed that when I was a Tyro some 30 years ago when I was doing my observation flights. It was between the PIC and the Sr. F/A. Day one was all was fun and games, and by day 4 all was a nightmare from Elm Sreet:}!

An angry Captain is likely to be a distracted Captain. In the short term if removing the source of the inritation allowed him to focus on the flight and safely complete it then so be it.

This really says it all. He had other options. I suspect he was still probably not fit to operate. All very unfortunate. Hopefully he will get eventually get back to 'normal'.

Perhaps he was the source of his own irritation:confused:. Still no reason to divert a jet. If the Skipper was stalwartly felt the Purser to be inadequate and or noncompliant, as PIC of the entire crew, he should have given one of the F/As an infield promotion. Then he and those F/Os present during the incident prepare an in-flight incident report to be submitted to the C/P and C/FA for review and disciplinary actions.

In the long run probably a better alternative than to diverting a flight for a nonemergency, and inconveniencing passengers, remainder of the crew, and having an aircraft out of sequence for further use.

Would have been the proper way to manage the issue - exercise your PIC power, put her/him on Dead Head status, write a report, drink coffee with cookies later at HQ.

Avoids headlines and fuss.

Difference?
 

I think there is a lot more to this story than what has surfaced here. I have a couple of friends at UAL and so far they say there isn't much to be said. So I take what I read here with a grain of salt.

I only ask that what is the difference if you land a jet (doesn't matter if it is a Domestic or International Flight) because of some a passenger creating a problem or a Cabin Staff doing the same? The passenger more than likely will probably go to jail.

The Captain on this Flight had to make this decision. I am sure he talked to both of his First Officer's about what his intention was. I have seen Cabin Staff shenanigan's on many of flights over the years. I have left Flight Attendants behind, I have demoted the Purser to the back of the aircraft. I will do what is necessary to have a safe trip with as little tension as possible. They work for me, I don't work for them. It isn't a popularity contest in any form or fashion. It's a benevolent dictatorship.

I do remember many years ago after our Flight Attendant strike that there was a lot of Cat Fighting going on all the time. So and so wouldn't do this and that. Tensions were always high for a long time. It was mostly between the Cabin Staff but occasionally the Cockpit Crew would get involved.

This isn't the first time this has happened, it certainly will not be the last. I know it has happened at the airline I work for and probably every other one as well. Give it some time until the facts come out.

...ehrrrm

1. We are talking about a diversion of a major US carrier. Cabin Staff "creating a problem" must be very serious (Revolution a la Bounty /Terrorists?)

2. "I am sure he talked to both of his First Officer's about what his intention was."

I'm sure he did, as well. I'm not sure they agreed....

3. "They work for me, I don't work for them."

What is this? You both work for a big Airliner. You both should work as a team, not as a dictator...

regards

hetfield

Captain of a major EU Airline

Yes I am well aware Hetfield. I know the differences very well. However there seems be a difference on what we do and how we do it. The only thing I can say is that you are the Captain of your aircraft and I am the Captain of mine. I don't subscribe to the Team Concept. There can only be one Captain on the Aircraft, period.

Respectfully,

Bob

The million dollar question is:

"What behaviour of a purser would justify a diversion of an airliner"?

- sickness
- creating a "safety problem"
- .........


tell me.........................

Yup, I would agree.

And further, the regulatory authorities also agree...just one is in charge, and that person is the designated Captain.
This does not mean, of course, that the Captain should not expect nor solicit the opinions of other crew members, however, the final decision rests with the Commander/Captain....not withstanding all the latest mumbo-jumbo CRM/team concept nonsense.

Capt Bob,

As an FO I fully agree with you! There can only be ONE captain per flight, the buck stops with you on ALL matters, good or bad, bar one, safety! If a captain makes a bad call related to safety then the FO had got to do something, on all other matters, advice can be given by crew members but the flight is NOT run by a commitee!
That's why you earn the big bucks!!!!!

The below regulatory guidance is clear enough, regarding crewmember compliance with the Capain's instructions.

I'm wondering why he didn't have the FBI meet the aircraft. One would think that, crewmember or passenger, noncompliance with flight crewmember instructions (ESPECIALLY the Captain) is a federal offense.

hmmmm......

KC135777


FAR 121.535 Responsibility for operational control: Flag operations.

(d) Each pilot in command of an aircraft is, during flight time, in command of the aircraft and crew and is responsible for the safety of the passengers, crewmembers, cargo, and airplane.

(e) Each pilot in command has full control and authority in the operation of the aircraft, without limitation, over other crewmembers and their duties during flight time, whether or not he holds valid certificates authorizing him to perform the duties of those crewmembers.

The trouble with cabin crew is that they do not understand their place in the work hierarchy. In general, they consider themselves as equals of pilots. In human terms outside of work, yes. In professional terms, in the workplace, absolutely not. (Any more than doctors and nurses, lawyers and clerks, managers and secretaries, etc.)

The required qualifications, and level and duration of training required to achieve purser or wide-body pilot are in no way comparable. Not even close.

In this instance, the Captain was exercising his professional duties.

"The trouble with cabin crew is that they do not understand their place in the work hierarchy. In general, they consider themselves as equals of pilots. In human terms outside of work, yes. In professional terms, in the workplace, absolutely not. (Any more than doctors and nurses, lawyers and clerks, managers and secretaries, etc.)

The required qualifications, and level and duration of training required to achieve purser or wide-body pilot are in no way comparable. Not even close.

In this instance, the Captain was exercising his professional duties"


Try posting this point of view in the cabin crew section if you like to get some real discussion going...

Let's get this in perspective.

UNLESS there is a risk to the safety of the aeroplane, there is no need to divert. IF you have more than the minimum crew, the obvious solution is to stand down the 'offending', instantly 'promote' as necessary to fill the gap, and then throw the book at the offending on landing IF REQUIRED. There must have been an SFA that could have taken over. This 'I am the Captain and I'm in charge' stuff is not relevant as this has been presented to us. There is no 'threat' to the perceived status of the Captain by doing this.

After the diversion, with FTL issues to consider, possible tech problems on turn-round, possible delays, passenger inconvenience, costs etc etc, where are you when you get airborne? 1 crew-member short. It sounds to me as if 2 heads needed banging together. What a waste of everybody's time and effort. I take it this was after a lay-over?

To add to the 'steak sandwich' story, many years ago, early 90's, I was listening (as a BA 'poor relation') to BA company freq in CPH to hear Rodney from Golden runways declare "WELL - I'm not leaving until we get the cheeseboard".:)

As a SLF I do wonder what all this fuss is coming out.
If the PIC decided to off load a purser the only reason is that he/she was a threat to the aircraft.
Any other reasons have no commercial standing.
I do no think that the issue is if the PIC has the right to offload the purser, the issue is if diverting was the right choice.
IMHO it was not, and in this case I would raise the question if the PIC was fit for duty. His/Her decision making was not up to the task.
I have seen passengers restrained on the plane, and the PIC did not divert to offload them, so if this purser was so unruly why was not restrained? I am sure that all aircrafts carry the necessary means to restrain any unruly person.
FSLF

OMG the holier then though opinions of some of you "professionals" is shocking and actually terrifying! The vast majority of industry experts if they were to read this would probably give up flying for ever for the fear of ending up on a flight with a power hungry pilot! :ugh:

Too bad you don’t subscribe to the first part – agree on the second part.



No surprise CRM is nonsense to you ….what else is new ??

They are welcome to their personal opinions, because....they are not in Command of an airliner.
We are, they ain't. A simple concept to understand.

Not much else.:}
You are advised to stay firmly ground bound, if you don't like my arrangements.
Makes no difference to me, whatsoever, nor my present airline company.