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Pilots protest over flying hours
Pilots protest over flying hours
Airline pilots who say long flying hours are "putting lives at risk" are to hold demonstrations across Europe. European air crew unions argue current rules governing how long they can fly for are unsafe, with fatigue a factor in 15% of accidents. But the European Aviation Safety Agency says it is still considering a scientific report on the issue. There will be no demonstrations in the UK because industrial action by pilots is outlawed. British pilots are expected to join demonstrations on the continent with colleagues from 35 other countries. It is not clear whether the action will cause disruption to travellers. Pilots and air crew have complained that their working conditions have deteriorated as the airline industry looks to cut costs. The British Airline Pilots Association (Balpa) said two million leaflets would be handed out across Europe by the protesters. The general secretary of Balpa, Jim McAuslan, said he feared that attempts by the EU to standardise working conditions by 2012 would put more pressure on pilots. This is a defining moment in how passengers will be protected Jim McAuslan, British Airline Pilots Association He said: "Only fatigue experts understand the impact on a body of flying through so many time zones, having consecutive early starts and late duties and all the other factors that make up a pilot's life. "At the beginning of this year some of the most noted fatigue experts in the world presented their report which concluded that the EU rules were indeed unsafe. "This is a defining moment in how passengers will be protected." A Department for Transport spokesman insisted that safety would not be compromised by the new rules. He said: "The European Aviation Safety Agency is in the process of considering the responses to its consultation on a first draft of rules establishing flight and duty time limits. "While these are unlikely to be finalised until some time in 2011, we are confident they will maintain the same high level of safety as the current rules. "The safety of passengers and crew is our top priority and we will not allow this to be compromised." |
Wrt 'no demonstrations in the UK because industrial action by pilots is outlawed'.... err, since when did being a civilian pilot prohibit one from taking industrial action?!
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Devils Advocate,
My understanding, of my beloved BBC text, is that pilots are not allowed to hold demonstrations in the UK. Industrial action might be ok. Obviously English is not my first language. Rwy in Sight |
Well, I think that joining any form of protest, meeting or demonstartion during the time you are NOT on duty, meaning in your free time, is not a form of industrial action or strike. I am sure that "even" in the UK vereybody is free to join any kind of peaceful protest.
As far as I know there are NO industrial actions, some would call it strikes, planed. The plan for today is, to make the travelling public aware of the problems caused by long duty hours etc. |
The 'public' does not care...they want cheap fares, period, especially the bucket and spade brigade.
These 'demonstrating' pilots are waisting their time.:rolleyes: |
411A
I'm afraid you've hit the nail squarely on the head...most of the UK travelling public regard spending more than 10 - 20 quid on an airline ticket to their holiday home/stag night/shopping haunt in Europe as being "ripped off".
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From the BALPA website (courtesy of Sepla).
How rosters could look under new EASA rules. http://www.balpa.org/Document-Librar...009-10-05.aspx |
from down under
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pointless:
Is it not pointless to post a link that requires the user to login to a "secure" site? |
P.Username says in post #9 of this thread
"From the BALPA website (courtesy of Sepla). How rosters could look under new EASA rules. http://www.balpa.org/Document-Librar...009-10-05.aspx” It seems to be not possible to access this document without being a BALPA member. This pprune is a planetary website, so it should be understood and tolerated that the vast majority of us are neither members nor potential members of BALPA (British Airline Pilots’ Association) If this is an important document for international consideration so please cut copy and post the document here. Thanks. |
For those of you in the UK.... why not join BALPA over this crucial issue and help protect yourself, your colleagues and the travelling public. For those outside the UK, perhaps your own union could help you with their interpretation of the proposed rules.
For those souls either unfortunate enough to live somewhere that does not allow unions and for those too short sighted to choose to belong to a pilot union then why not try searching for the source document yourselves (Brussels/Strasbourg?). |
It looks like BALPA thinks that it can make progress on this without any help from outside.
We will see. |
On what do you base:-
It looks like BALPA thinks that it can make progress on this without any help from outside |
Do not care?
"The 'public' does not care...they want cheap fares, period, especially the bucket and spade brigade."
Oh yes I ******** well do. If I thought an airline was working their crew into both our graves (smoking hole in ground?) I would NOT fly with them or be quiet. At the moment I think the number of hours is OK but the combination of lates & earlies concerns me. regards, Joe Public |
You can find out more in about this on the IFALPA website International Federation of Airline Pilots' Associations - IFALPA (current edition of InterPilot) and also in the press release section.
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Pilot has hangover - Daily Hate camped outside house, thrown in jail, gallows constructed.
Pilot physically and mentally exhausted - Who cares? Overpaid prima donna. Sack him if he goes sick. I fully expect my noble colleagues to be totally ignored.:ugh: |
I went along with Pilot Pete some years ago to lobby my MEP who was the "raconteur" if that's the right word, when the initial legislation was passed at the European Parliament. It was quite clear that the individual concerned hadn't a clue about fatigue or the issues involved (not bad for a Labour MEP). His view was the legislation should be passed, then reviewed and changed if necessary. His first 2 ideas came to fruition and the review showed that the legislation was fatiguing.
Legislation in the UK still requires pilots not to fly if they are fatigued or if they consider that the rostered flight would make them fatigued. Simple solution is don't to do the flight and fill in the sick form with the simple word fatigued. No manager would dare to touch you. |
What difference do you think BALPA will make? In my experience the grand total of the square root of diddley squat.
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Firestorm, unfortunately BALPA has it's hands tied behind it's back by anti-union legislation and the very nature of many pilots, who are quite content to stand by and barrack from the sidelines without contributing anything for the common good - I'm thinking in particular of the free-loading element, i.e. non-members.
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What difference do you think BALPA will make? In my experience the grand total of the square root of diddley squat. |
No manager would dare to touch you. |
Would this be a good time to bring up the fact that LAME's/AME's/A&P's in most parts of the world don't have duty time restrictions, late shift/early shift restrictions, are expected to work the same day that they arrive at work even if travelling through multiple timezones (12 timezones for me in fact), and yet nobody seems to be interested in commissioning a study on the affects of fatigue on maintenance crew and the affect that it poses to airline safety or aviation safety as a whole. Interesting.
If anybody does know of some such study for engineering staff, please PM me with details, I would be very interested to know. Yes it is extremely important to ensure that aircrew are well rested for their duty day, but perhaps think about the mechanic who works 11 hour shifts on the ramp, 6 days a week, on a 7 month contract for one of the larger aviation companies in the world. I sure needed a rest after that one! And no, that type of contract is not unusual. Perhaps after the pilots in the EU get their lot sorted, and I hope you do, there will be some sort of flowdown affect. I doubt it though, primarily due to the fact that most aviation companies see maintenance as an expense that they need to try to minimise, instead of a tool that can be used to minimise downtime. I'll now get down off my soapbox. Duty periods for engineering staff is a pet hate of mine!! You might have been able to tell. |
BAE Symptoms of Contaminated air - Fatigue...
Here is a helpful list of possible symptoms from BAE (at the end of the link), which may be experienced from contaminated cabin air - familiar anyone?
Head normal, headache, light-headed, pressure in head, ‘moon-walking’. General normal, dizzy, faint, giddy, vague lack of concentration, poor co-ordination. Alertness normal, fatigued, tired, sleepy, somnolent, exhausted. Emotions normal, relaxed, euphoric, elated, ‘drunk’, intoxicated, irritable, morose, pugnacious. Eyes normal, dry, irritated, burning, streaming. Nose normal, dry, irritated, burning, streaming. Throat normal, dry, irritated, burning. Breathing normal, shortness of breath, breathless, laboured breathing, rapid breathing, pressure in chest. Stomach normal, nauseous, vomiting. Numbness or Tingling none, scalp, hair-roots, nose, lips, fingers, toes. ‘Blueness’ none, lips, nail-beds, finger-tips. http://www.aerotoxic.org/download/do...6-RJ-536-1.pdf I had most of them, but crippling fatigue was by far the worst. DB :{ |
I did shift work from the age of 18 to 42,various types of shift systems in different jobs.
I came to the conclusion that when you are young, shift work is not a problem but as you get older it starts to effect your health. I took a daywork job at 42 with a considerable reduction in salary.Felt much better even though the job had a higher stress level. |
Maybe if the public knew how often pilots fall asleep whilst they're on their way to Spain (and everywhere else) they might think again.
I've flown dozens of sectors (as have many of us) when the other pilot was asleep for part of the trip - sometimes without knowing it - and on one occasion denying it as he had no idea he'd drifted off! I've never fallen asleep myself, but I've been EXTREMELY fatigued - and on one occasion developed a 'poorly tummy' to enable me to get off the duty in between sectors because I couldn't function property I was so tired. I'm sure the public have visions of two, fit, alert individuals flying the aeroplane when, in fact, they are almost certainly fatigued to some degree and possibly asleep. Happy days! not FOK |
411A is absolutely right, if it is not cheap it is no good.
It is about time that air fares go up to enable airlines to earn enough money to invest in new aircraft etc., pay decent wages to their staff and offer them good working conditions. |
Several points need making here. Firstly and most importantly, you don't fly if fatigued. Therefore, you have to follow your company's protocol for informing that you are not available for work. If undue pressure is then placed on you to work when you are not fit (or an invitation for tea and biscuits), then file a Chirp report and also make sure your union is on your case. Should you be at work and find yourself fatigued then make a Pan call, write an ASR and other such paperwork. You may even have to divert. That will get their attention. However, you should have been clear in your own mind that you were convinced before departure that you could safely complete the flight.
Secondly, your company owes you a duty of care regarding the hours you work vs your trip home and are duty bound to make sure that you are not so knackered you can't safely drive home. Again, another union matter. Lastly, you are a Union member, aren't you? PM |
What difference do you think BALPA will make? In my experience the grand total of the square root of diddley squat. Don't forget, your union is you and your collegues. So are you saying is that your collegues are not very useful? PM |
Secondly, your company owes you a duty of care regarding the hours you work vs your trip home and are duty bound to make sure that you are not so knackered you can't safely drive home. |
If you die in an car crash as a direct result of driving whilst fatigued, you and your company are responsible. You for driving and your company for making you fatigued. I can't give you references, but we have agreements from our company that following certain duties (extended on the day) you will be booked into a hotel at your home base - because they have a duty of care towards us. Again, another union negotiated entitlement.
PM |
Understanding and Managing Fatigue in Operational Aviation Contexts
A few weeks ago the Danish Association for Aviation and Diving Medicine had a very interesting lecture by John Caldwell, Ph.D., USA,
Understanding and Managing Fatigue in Operational Aviation Contexts The presentations are available here http://www.flyvdyk.dk/upload/cph_fat...#91;1].pdf http://www.flyvdyk.dk/upload/cph_fat...hop_2009_b.pdf The "official" page for the European Campaign is here: www.dead-tired.eu PS I've posted this previously under the FAA thread http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/3...est-rules.html but thought Caldwells presentation deserved another mention. |
Piltdown Man
Firstly, no disrespect. I don't know if you fly or with whom, but if you try that approach with the low-cost carriers it is, in my experience, unlikely to succeed. I hope the carriers have changed in the past few years, but if either flightdeck or cabin crew with a certain 'colourful' airline tried the trick of reporting 'sick' on a regular basis action was taken against them. Heaven forbid you told the truth and said you were fatigued because you were working five or six days 4 or 6 sector days on the trot! I got very tired having worked a minimum 12 hour day, then an hours' drive each way each day. That left 10 hours 'home time' of which, by necessity, at least 8 hours was asleep. So 2 hours at home awake max. No wonder I binned airline flying in the end. It just wasn't safe when the (then) Captains were falling asleep and expecting me to be sufficently awake to do the navigation, 'flying' and RT - and eat and complete the plog and talk to the pax. Was it unsafe? I don't know. Would we have passed a sim detail or carried on like that with a training captain on the jump seat? NEVER!!! So it can't be right can it? It didn't happen all the time obviously, but it should never have happened at all. I appreciate that airlines vary and I should hope that the likes of BA have more favourable roster patterns than the budget airlines. It was never about quality of pilots - I've flown with test pilots and ex-BA, RAF, Army, Navy, Virgin, Singapore airline pilots for example - some of the best around. But no matter your background or training we are all humans and (most) humans need adequate rest. Deprive them of that rest and people cannot act at their best day-in day-out no matter who they are. I've had one of two near misses due primarily to the fatigue of either myself or the other pilot which now I have 'retired' are of anecdotal interest only. If the passengers had only known how close to death they were! Not sensationalism, just airline experiences during several years in the job. It's no life either being constantly tired - with all the stress that places on relationships. Most of my contemporaries were either single or divorced. I know 'happy' relationships exist but in my experience they are few and far between (if everyone is honest to their partner!!!). Stress causes more stress. Some examples: Captain fell asleep due to fatigue - when awoken he had no recollection of the flight (didn't wake him because a thought it better he was awake for the approach rather than the cruise); Captain misread the approach plate and I was too tired to spot the error. 50 people were almost killed as we descended to within a few hundred feet of the ground in cloud; Captain (ex-RAF instructor) told me to take control as he was so tired he needed to sleep. He slept for 90% of the 3 hour sector to Spain. Awake for only the take-off climb and approach; 'Colourful' airline ops called to say crew were tired and needed to complete duty in AMS - also over Captain's Discretion. Vote taken and all crew agreed ops should be informed. We were told either to complete the duty or change aircraft and fly the shorter sector to Luton. Then get a taxi home (5 hrs in total) - Hobson's choice. In the end we flew back to base. Tired and out of hours (try the Piltdown Man approach in that situation). Stories abound and in this case most are not exaggerated - but the vast majority are never told - what happens in 'Vegas stays in 'Vegas! The effect of age has an affect too (of course). No doubt that is one of the reasons BA pilots are retired at age 55. Where do they go then - the likes of easyjet and Ryanair of course! Five to ten more years to build up their pensions, live a good life, or pay off the wife/wives and provide maintenance for the children. As we all know CAP371 was never designed for this method of working. The winners are the passengers. Let's hope no one reading this is ever killed by a fatigue related accident. Maybe they and the family they left behind might wish they'd paid for a more expense ticket? Maybe the airline that tends to charge for every extra imaginable could charge an extra €10 to guarantee a 'fatigue-free' crew! FOK |
One wonders if patients would be irritated if their GP's fell asleep during their consultations, or perhaps, surgeons, during their operations?
The average GP is now paid £106K according to the Telegraph a few days ago... I'm paid nowhere near that... |
FlyingOfficerKite
It sounds like you are talking about the same colourful loco that I've been employed by for the last 3 years. I have to say that I am unable to relate to any of the experiences that you allude to. Perhaps you left more than 3 years ago? I've been tired at work, but 9 times out of 10 it's my fault as I've been up doing stuff when I should be going to bed. Let's be honest, if you have a 4:30 report you do need to get to bed at a reasonably early hour. That's the nature of the job and is the case no matter which carrier you work for. I've had one captain that I can recall suddenly kick out the z's without warning. This captain was well known for it amongst other FO's and he also did lots of flying instruction on the side so he was probably burning the candle at both ends. If we do feel tired we are allowed to take "controlled rest". That means you can close your eyes for 20 minutes and the other person knows what you are doing. If we use the word fatigued we are off the flight with no questions asked. If you continually do it they will obviously start asking questions. How far do you drive in? Do you do other work on the side? Does the baby keep you up all night? These are things that an individual must manage and they are not the companies responsibility. I'm not saying the job doesn't get tiring because like any job you will be more tired by the end of your working week. But if it's too much, just call in fatigued. Most people complain about early starts but they don't cause me a problem, I find the 5 days of 10 - 11 hour, 4 sector late duties the most fatiguing. To summarise, I don't want to suggest that everything is rosy as it is hard work, it is tiring and we definitely could not have any relaxation of the current rules. But your depiction of the colourful loco is not accurate, at least not post 2007. |
Because this is EU legislation it will override national legislation and protocals - so CAP 371 etc will cease to exist. All of you with wonderfull FTL agrements will find them replaced by EASA legislation and you will not have a legal leg to stand on.
Action must be taken now to alter the legislation so that it acounts for the overwhelming medical evidence regarding fatigue. This is our only chance to do somthing because the people who draw this stuff up don't care about evidence or facts ( they ignored their own reports) they just care about looking good passing all these laws and earning brownie points. Companies will alter their FTL rule to the lowest available as soon as they can unless we do somthing now. Question since when was I not allowed to protest when off duty? The police managed it so why cant we? Not that we live in one of the more restrictive western democracies.:oh: |
SR 71 - doctors falling asleep?
when my wife had to go into hospital late one night the junior doctor who did the initial examination fell asleep on her feet whilst briefing the consultant! so yes they have very fatiguing hour all in the name of geting trainee doctors to see as many patients as possible. |
PT6 Driver
As i understand it a UK Airline could apply for CAP371 as a derogation when EASA kicks in?. Why didnt any UK Airline apply for sub part Q when it came into effect? Piltdown Man Don't suppose you could find out what your Union / Airlines thoughts would be for the taxman of offering accomodation at home base after a lengthy duty. I presume the crew member makes no contribution to the cost of hotac? :\ |
Total costs absorbed by the company as this expense was a incurred wholly as a result work after a long and unplanned duty. No tax liability. However, we are also able to swap the Hotac for a Taxi fare home, again no tax liability.
And chaps, are you guys (FOK in particular) telling me that Lo-Cos's are dangerous airlines to fly with because the crews may be fatigued and prefer to fly in this condition than call in sick? If this is the case, you are doing the wrong job because you morally you are worse than the organisations you work for. If we want any understanding from the public we must be able to show that we have integrity. PM |
Let's be honest, if you have a 4:30 report you do need to get to bed at a reasonably early hour. That's the nature of the job and is the case no matter which carrier you work for. I think there is also some difference between short term tiredness due to lack of sleep and long term "battle fatigue" caused by weeks of irregular rosters. |
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