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Pay attention.
The rubbish on this website flows on and on. Richard Quest (CNN) is an able representative of such rubbish. A foolish man.
As an experienced A330 pilot, I can inform those PPrune posters and TV/radio commentators who have no experience-based knowledge, your stupid postings/TV commentaries are evident and obviously ignorant to aviation professionals and sadly they appear plausible to people who have little understanding. (BBC/Sky News included) The idiots abound. Thank God for professionals, including the AF pilots who doubtless did their best. When your time is truly up, that is it. My thought is that the situation was beyond resolution. This happens, albeit rarely, in life. And aviation. |
The chances of a sucessfule ditching are none!
It´s a big aircraft and it would brake up on a normal day, this was during night. The pilots couldn´t see the water coming, the current constantly changes and there was waves. So no I don´t think the ditching went god if there was one. Even if there was a ditching and survivors, I don´t think they are still alive by now. |
There is a complete convergence of interests at AF and Airbus to make sure once the black box is discovered the full story is totally managed so that we don't even think that maybe the A330 family (and for that matter the A340 family with which it shares so much) should be grounded until the mystery is solved... Remember its one big statist monopoly all-been-to-the-same-school group of people that run industry in France... P.S. Not anti-French nor anti-AF nor anti-Airbus - just providing a reality check ! P.S. I'm not anti-British and I have many friends in U.K. but I must say that you mostly suck when it's time for business, although you may show friendly at the pub! |
ZeBedie Cabin fire or a bomb would be far more likely than severe weather to bring the aircraft down. I wonder why AF are concentrating on wx rather than the more likely scenarios? Maybe we'll never know the truth? Let me take a wild guess. You don't actually fly airplanes for a living, do you, but rather teach Conspiracy Theory 101 at your local internet message board. :ugh: |
i have been flying next to CB s and sometimes in the less severe part of it not because i wanted to but because i had no choice and i can tell that it is by far the most dangerous thing in aviation considering that i am flying in war zones. having said that , my gut feeling is a catastophic failure of some sort since no mayday call was sent. only time will tell.
carolos |
I can't help but feel this lightning thing is a red herring. I mean, there have been ~600 A330's built since 1994, if all of those flew 12 hrs a day, that's more than 2.6m hours a year. Never mind all the other very similar Airbus aircraft flying around with similar composite parts. Never mind all the Boeing aircraft. It seems to be so unlikely as to render it almost impossible that a single strike could take down a transport category aircraft that it and it's counterparts have doubtless been struck thousands of times before with little to no effect.
Seriously, transport category aircraft get struck by lightning all the time, I bet there aren't many jet drivers out there that haven't been. Hell, I bet there aren't many frequent flying pax out there that haven't experienced it. It's not like the A330 is short or metal parts to strike either. How many other Airbus aircraft have ever had difficulties following a lightning strike? How many have had problems with turbulence? Both are generally non-events. I think we need to take a step back and wait for more information. We are talking about a modern, well equipped aircraft, with a well trained, experienced crew. Clearly something is missing, I hope we get to find out what it is. |
Just saw some kind of "press conference" on CNN, in french but "dubbed" in english stating "several warning messages coming from the aparatus [sic]".
Any french person around that can provide us with some *proper* translation of the press conference contents ? Guess something was "lost in translation" ... ./J |
Hell, I bet there aren't many frequent flying pax out there that haven't experienced it. |
It's not like the A330 is short or metal parts to strike either. How many other Airbus aircraft have ever had difficulties following a lightning strike? How many have had problems with turbulence? Both are generally non-events. |
Transmissions
Some people seem to have made the error of stating (or assuming) that the pilots didn't make any transmissions after reporting INTOL (one post in particular seems to have been since removed?). The correct statement is that transmissions (apparently) weren't received.
If the first statement is true, the assumption might be rapid catastrophic airframe failure or that the pilots were far too busy until an airframe failure occurred. If the second statement is true, a far larger number of possibilities open up. In an area with no radar coverage and unreliable radio contact compounded by huge electrical activity, the aircrew may well have been transmitting and not being picked up. Perhaps even in a controlled descent. An extremely unfortunate note is that (if the Norwegian news story is true) PAX have superior communications technology available to them via satellite uplink and the most reliable company communication is a similarly uplinked automated fault annunciator useful to company mechanics and operations managers but woefully inadequate to address infinitely more pressing matters. |
I couldn't imagine anything worse then loosing your weather radar over the middle of the atlantic, at night, when there are CBs in the vicinity.
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@Smilin_Ed
Granted, but flow of charge tends to take the path of least resistance, so preferentially "avoids" composite parts without conductors when placed along side a metal part. |
Translation of DenisG post (#325)
Aeronautica keeps up the search for the lost flight during the night
marcio falcao of folha online, Brasilia The search actions of the Brasilian Air Force (FAB) for the AF plane missing since Sunday night will not be interrupted during Monday night and early Tuesday morning. The Hercules C-130 will perform a night search using electronic equipment in an attempt to capture signals from the emergency devices of the Airbus 330 of flight AF447 The aircraft disappeared on the route from Rio, from where it took off to Paris at around 19hours on Sunday, with 228 persons on boar -, 216 passengers and 12 crew. According to AF, there were 58 Brasilian passengers on board. During today, Bandeirantes aircraft flew over a region of the atlantic ocean, in which contact with the airbus was lost, reaching the limits between Brasilian and Senegalese airspace. the Bandeirantes performed low level flights in an attempt to get visual contact with the Airbus. French govenrment communicated to FAB command that two aircraft performed searche sweeps on the Senegalese side. In total, Brasilian air force put 5 aircraft into the search operation, 2 helicopters, and 3 navy aircraft. FAB initiated search actions at around 02h to localize the lost aircraft, after receiving notice from air space control at Ilha do Sal. The search aircraft are based on Fernande de Noronha island (PE state) and in Natal. Coordination is done via Cindacta 3 in Recife. Following FAB information, the last contact with the lost aircraft with a Brasilian control occurred at about 22:30. After that, a contact was foreseen for 23:20, with TASIL, controlling a region about 22 km to North of Natal, which never occurred. Brasilian air space command realised some contacts with Dakar control, to obtain flight condition information. According to Aeronautica, in the region where the loss occurred, there is no radar coverage, and communication is done via long distance radio links. FAB attempts to establish the approximate distance between Recife and the area where the aircraft was lost. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The online article has several links, which I do not translate unless requested. My thoughts go to all families. |
Aditional input
Ok,
First of all, may their souls rest in peace. Secondly, today in Portuguese TV ( im portuguese), there were some TAP pilots that refered that Yesterday ( day before de acident) they crossed the same area ( Portugal to Brasil and vice versa) and they mentioned that they barely could transmit their message in HF to brasil traffic controlers. this was confimed with other aircrafts because they all could speak with each other but not the ATC control. Static/poor radio propragation/whatever. Plus they said that the weather was not bad, only some light turbulence. But you know that weather changes quickly in that area. Nowadays there is the technology that allow an aircraft to relay a normal mobile phone. The Phone is on permanent roaming while aboard the aircraft. http://www.onair.aero/admin/fil/02_A...nAir_voice.pdfSiemens and Airbus develop joint aircraft GSM solution so, smsing is possible if aircraft was fitted with that equipment. now, Look into what happened in recente past: Hudson, dual engine failure=> still pilots able to comunicate. TWA 800, catastrophic colapse of airframe (after center tank explosion)=> no comunication at all. MD11 from swiss: Was able to comunicate failures ( electrical short/overcharge of system) before crashing. But again, we dont know if brasil was able to listen any coms. One thing is for sure: AF pilots are very good and obviously they would be very proeficient in aplying the emergency measures, if they had the chance. So, what ever happened it was fast. My final opinion, AF saying that it was a ligthning strike, it is a prematurly one, looks like a "not in my backyard" message from AF. like if it was Act of God. Maybe it was, maybe it wasnt. Nobody knows for sure. A huge amount of things could have happened. But flown several time in A330, i still consider onde of the best aircrafts in the world. Best Regards, JB PS: Just a thought: doesnt the Karnivore system from CIA scans for these frequencies? |
italianjon
Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 111 There is lots of discussions about weather maps a speculation about the conditions in the vicinity of the last known postion, although does anyone know if there were any other aircraft following the same or parallel routes that experienced turbulence, CBs or other. If this was the second AF flight from Rio to CDG, what routing did the first flight take and what en-route weather was experienced? I am not speculating (famous last words before I get flamed http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/wink2.gif ) I just feel that putting a map up and saying "ooo looks bad" and getting a confirmed report from another aircraft in the same bit of sky are two completely different things in understanding what weather the aircraft experienced. ******************************************************* The weather you experience can be completely different for the flight 5 minutes in front of, or behind, you. Same goes for 5 miles either side, or even 1000' - 2000' above or below you. We don't even know, at this point, if the aircraft was exactly on the airway or had deviated slightly for any weather. |
I had some reports from pilots that flew around that time the area and said that the area had a lot of CBs. The comms were difficult (but that's nothing new). One of them even gave some back-up frequencies to an AF, but not sure if it was AF447. Anyway, there wasn't any distress call heard by them be it 123.45 or 121.5
Our condolences for the friends and families of the victims. Check Six , Krueger...:( |
Strongresolve
Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Valencia Age: 34 Posts: 37 This is fact: The planes was close to an area of intense CB and TS activity. ******************************************************* Actually the link provided in this thread had an area of OCL EMBD TSTMS. We get terminology or verbiarge creep and the theories start developing. Intense wasn't on the weather charts. Looked at the link provided with the weather forecast for the route of flight with 2 other wide body pilots. 55,000 hrs combined experience, including that portion of the world, and to us the predicted weather was normal for the ITCZ. |
misd-agin,
What you hear is the usual internet 'knowledge of everything, 'understanding of nothing'. I heard Greg Feith on CNN today. At least there are some voices of reason out there. Nothing is known, everything is known, seems to be the current motto. |
http://static.pprune.org/images/statusicon/post_old.gif Today, 18:01 #308 (permalink) Airbubba
Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA Posts: 1,940 If they were on top, the moon was up last night while AF 477 was in flight. I hit the ITCZ mostly in Asia. There are cells that tower in the moonlight but are all but invisible on radar. You can be cruising along fat dumb and happy and suddenly find your self in a cell. I try to stay high but keep a good stall buffet margin in case the bumps start. ******************************************************* What sort of radar management settings are you talking about when you say the cells "are all but invisible on radar"? At the recommended settings many cells are "all but invisible on radar". For that reason alone most guys don't use the recommended settings and instead set the radar at it's most sensitive settings and work backwards, towards less sensitive settings, from there. |
PUG :D
Just saw some kind of "press conference" on CNN, in french but "dubbed" in english stating "several warning messages coming from the aparatus [sic]". Any french person around that can provide us with some *proper* translation of the press conference contents ? Guess something was "lost in translation" ... I'm pretty sure that I heard earlier today on CNN the CEO of AF saying (among others) that they believed that both engines may have quit... but couldn't get this sorted out properly. Unfortunately AF PR stuff does a not so good job in not getting the speeches up on their webpage and have at least an English version available... So, is there anybody from France who could give a bit more precise info please to what was said and not what the media makes off it? And please dear Mr. Turner pull the plug on Richard "Blubbla" Quest!!! Appreciated! |
Brazil media is reporting Senegal SAR teams have located wreckage...unable to confirm so far if the wreckage is indeed that of the Airbus.
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Lx 93 Gru-zrh
It would be interesting to know what the Swiss Air 343 experienced last night. The flight left GRU at 1835 local - arriving ZRH at 1100 local. Would have been in similar airspace and conditions in relatively close proximity.
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reauters is reporting a frnch minister quoting that the search has been pinpointed to within 10nm
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Brazialian Media report that wreckage of Air France plane found in Sengal waters
RIO - The Government of Senegal announced in the late afternoon of Monday, be located in their territorial sea which could be the wreckage of Air France plane that disappeared in the Atlantic Ocean with 228 people on board, on Sunday night. According to the Center of Social Communication of the Air, if the information is verified by the search teams, the responsibility for investigating the causes of the accident is now in France, a country that belongs to the airline for flight. The Brazilian Air Force (FAB) does not, however, the possibility of the two governments entered into an agreement to establish working together.
See for full article via google translate Google Translate |
As someone who's flown an Airbus for the best part of two decades the terrorism possibility has been dismissed ridiculously quickly both here and in the media. It seems likely this jet came down pretty fast. How many times has weather brought down a big jet in recent years compared with how many times a bomb has?
I've no evidence whatsoever for this possibility, but neither is there for the other scenarios either. Bombs cause electrical failures and pressure loss too, even assuming the alleged ACARS messages are accurate. Of course AF aren't suggesting this - I'd blame it on the weather too if I were them. |
i'm just wondering where your reading or hearing this? My neighbour Aisling is one of the irish girls on the flight and her parents are just hoping the plane can be found, so they can see what happened and to help them get some closure.
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It has just been on the Brazilian news that TAM has officially announced that crew on a TAM flight from Paris to Rio de Janeiro spotted bright patches"fire" on the Atlantic Ocean surface about 1000Km from the archipelago of Fernando de Noronha around 30 minutes after the Air France A330 sent the electrical failure radio signal to Paris.
Here's the link of the story for anyone interested, G1 > Mundo - NOTÍCIAS - Piloto de rota comercial viu 'pontos laranjas' no oceano, diz Aeronáutica Bail ó Dhia ort... |
It seems Senegal found the wreckage?
Senegal encontra destroços que podem ser do avião da Air France que sumiu no Atlântico - O Globo I dont speak portuguese but its all over twitter at the moment. Sincerely sorry for the families and relatives. |
saw it on reauters.uk internet site and they were quoting senior french minister jean-louis borloo who said "the zone has been identified down to within 10 nautical miles"
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We know nothing. Air France knows nothing. Why do people look at automatic ACARS messages of any part of this accident? The known thunderstorms in the IC area are well known. They knew it before they took off. Why take fragments of information and come up with lightning strikes, etc. We need to wait for some solid data. I am sure Airbus knows already the copilot used too much rudder. Cheap solution.
Worked in 2001. |
Hanger 9,
"Plane crews have narrowed their search to a zone of a few dozen nautical miles half-way between Brazil and west Africa, said Pierre-Henry Gourgeon, chief executive of Air France." BBC NEWS | Americas | Atlantic searched for lost plane |
Rushed Approach....the truth is nobody knows what brought this aircraft down...
Terrorism is far more unlikely (given the current political climate) on a French jet than on an American jet...but still possible....terrorism follows a cause (however they justify it)...it is just that in the current political climate, there is no cause against France in International politics....which makes a bombing unlikely, but still possible. Weather is another factor...BOAC 707 at Mt Fuji springs to mind...an aircraft relatively new, yet was smashed by Lee Turbulence off Mt Fuji, no chance even for a MayDay. Other aircraft went past the area and did not report many problems, but again, it means nothing...I have seen many aircraft do missed approaches one after the other, then about 4 or 5 are able to come in when weather changes, and bang, all shut again, and no other aircraft can get in...unpredictable. As someone who's flown Airbuses for a while, can you explain to those who have not, what the worst case scenario would be at that height, at .82 or .83 and what window of opportunity you have to regain control in the case of a violent upset? |
@ Rushed Approach
There has been a four-minute sequence of automatic messages indicating malfunction and/or failure of at least one electrical circuit, secondly to this hour there still has been no claim by any terrorist organization of an attack on the plane. A terrorist operation, if not to be excluded at all, is at the moment a possibility that seems quite remote. |
Does the ELT work in deep water?
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We know nothing. Air France knows nothing. Why do people look at automatic ACARS messages of any part of this accident? The known thunderstorms in the IC area are well known. They knew it before they took off. Why take fragments of information and come up with lightning strikes, etc. We need to wait for some solid data. I am sure Airbus knows already the copilot used too much rudder. Cheap solution. Worked in 2001 |
Latest translation from Airfrance website, most of it probably irrelevent, but nethertheless;
Flight crew Commander: French 58 years He joined the company in 1988 Qualified on the Airbus A330/A340 in February 2007 11 000 flying hours, including 1 700 Airbus A330/A340 Co-pilots: French 37 years and 32 years Joined the company in 1999 and 2004 Airbus A330/A340 qualified in April 2002 and June 2008 6 600 flying hours, including 2 600 Airbus A330/A340 3 000 flying hours, including 800 by Airbus A330/A340 Cabin crew Purser: French 49 years He joined the company in 1985 Sr Cabin Crew French 54 and 46 years Joined the company in 1981 and 1989 Jr Cabin Crew 5 French and 1 Brazilian Between 24 and 44 years Entered the company between 1996 and 2007 Air France is able to confirm the nationalities of the passengers aboard the flight AF 447 of 31 May 2009, disappeared between Rio de Janeiro and Paris-Charles de Gaulle. This list has been established on the basis of information supplied by the Brazilian authorities. 1 South Africa 26 Germans 2 Americans 1 Argentina 1 Austrian 1 Belgian 58 Brazilians 5 Britons 1 Canadian 9 Chinese 1 Croatian 1 Danish 2 Spanish 1 Estonian 61 French 1 Gambia 4 Hungarian 3 Irish 1 Icelandic 9 Italy 5 Lebanese 2 Moroccans 1 Dutch 3 Norwegians 1 Filipino 2 Polish 1 Romanian 1 Russian 3 Slovakians 1 Swedish 6 Swiss 1 Turkish A medical and psychological assistance, including 15 medical specialists has been set up at the airports of Paris-Charles de Gaulle 2 and Rio de Janeiro. One hundred volunteer staff of Air France is reinforcing the team at Paris-Charles de Gaulle and Rio de Janeiro. |
The ELT will work anywhere...........
It won't be long now until the aircraft or wreckage is found. |
Tam has officially announced that crew on their flight from Paris to Rio spotted bright patches which looked like fire on the Atlantic Ocean surface about 1000Km from Fernando de Noronha only half an hour after the electrical failure radio transmissions made by the AF A330 computer.
Slán agus beannacht leat |
Good write up...
What happened to Flight 447? | U.S. | Reuters A fair amalgam of all the info available, other than incorrect information about the plane's maintenance record (it's wing clipped an A320's tail on the ground a while back), and the conclusion about constant telemetry being a shaky if not flawed idea. |
Tam Flight Crew Saw Flashes Near Air France Jet?s Final Signal - Bloomberg.com
By Heloiza Canassa June 1 (Bloomberg) -- Tam SA said crew members of one of its flights saw flashes of light over the Atlantic Ocean near where a missing Air France aircraft last sent a signal. Crew members were on the Tam flight to Rio de Janeiro from Paris when they saw the flashes about 1,300 kilometers (808 miles) from Fernando de Noronha island, Brazil’s second-largest airline said in an e-mailed statement. The Air France jet sent its last distress signal approximately 840 kilometers from Fernando de Noronha, according to Brazil’s Air Force. |
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