It was a wild, wild wind this morning. Hard to put anything down in that.

Yep, some of us have to worry about such things as the runway status at NRT. Looks like they are using 34R, the 'B' runway, which is 7152 feet long, the wind is still quite gusty. I've seen Triples operate off the short runway, never seen a 744 on that one.

Looks like it was N526FE (cn 48600/560).

N526FE Photo

Edit: Formerly Delta N813DE, converted for freight.

MD11 Crash;
 

Unfortunately the MD11 is not the easiest airplane to land. We don't know the causes; the only thing we can see in the video is the first bounced landing; on the second the tail touches the RWY braking apart; the left wing contacts the ground fliping the aircraft upside down.
Lets wait and see...

Some flights being diverted to Haneda, Kansai, Centrair

Looks like something quite nasty occurred at the first touchdown, but the a/c was well stalled and short of control authority and thrust during the main bounce.
The MD-11 will have more MOI (inertia) in the pitching plane than a twin of course

the short runway(34R) is only capable for 772 and below, so no departure for 747/773/346 at least this morning only what abt 345?

the short runway(34R) is only capable for 772 and below, so no departure for 747/773/346 at least this morning only what abt 345?

As a solution, would it not be possible for the 744's etc. to take on a splash of fuel and stop off at some other strip somewhere to avoid cancelling flights? Or is 34R just not long enough for a fully loaded 744, albeit with a light fuel load?

Weapons Hot

Thank you for your accurate transcription of what MD11 pilots have experienced for years- the major operators took the time to give formal instruction to their crews on the best techniques for the 'quirks' of this aircraft-- the rest of us had to glean what we could. Having said that- I loved this airplane, but it had some serious defects, namely, for some unknown reason, they(McDonald Douglas) decided to reduce the size of the elevator. As a result , after the engineers worked with the design, they had to install a computerized control system (known as an LSAS-- Longitudinal Stability Augmentation System) to help with pitch control. If this system was lost in flight the penalties were severe. How this design flaw may have played into this accident, I don't know, but all the DC10 pilots I knew said that McD D. took a step backwards when they built this AC (from a pilots handling POV)

34R
 

All flights operating with 773 and 744 are now shown as cancelled on the NRT website.

A&L, ARC, Md11, Md10,
 

See other App&Ldg, ARC cases:
ARC = Abnormal Rwy Contact

-- MD11 / 4Nov94 Lndg, ARC, tailstrike, ANC
-- MD-11 FDX 71 / 16May96 tail strike, landing ANC 24R
-- MD-11 Alitalia / 19Aug94 I-DUPO hard landing at ORD
-- MD10 /31Jul97 at EWR
-- MD11 / 22Aug99 Hong Kong
-- MD11 / 22May00 Taipei
-- MD11 / 20Nov01 Taipei
-- MD11 / 16Jun02 Subic
-- MD10F / 18Dec03 FedEx MEM
-- MD11/ 19Sep04 MEM, airplane had previously been involved in an incident involving a flight control malfunction on approach to Subic Bay, Philippines, on June 16, 2002 (NTSB # DCA02MA042)
-- MD11F / 7Jun05 SDF, http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20050627X00874&key=1
-- MD10 28Jul06 MEM LHS MLG fail

MD-11 Lanidng
 

I am shocked to learn of the death of the crew members, so my thoughts and prayers are with their families at this time.

Now, after all of the written BS on the AMS 737 NG accident prior to any released information, I would like to set the record straight regarding the MD-11 landing. It is a real handful in a crosswind, especially gusty conditions as per the HKG accident.

I have over 7000 hours flying this type so here is some information on what happens during the landing of the MD-11.

After moving off the MD-11 fleet, there was an update to the LSAS and the corresponding software (cant remember all the details as I am not an engineer) which made an input to the elevator, so as to avoid tail strikes near the flare and main wheel touchdown. This input applied "nose down" elevator which was not evident to the crew in terms of "feel" on the control column.

The autothrottle is "full time" to 50 Feet RA when it will start to retard. It was long felt by seasoned crew that this height was too "high" for this to occur. The need to "override" the A/T in gusty conditions made for a better touch down. Keep in mind that the Md-11 at near MLW will achieve a descent rate of about 1100-1200 FPM in steady wind conditions.

For the descent rate to be "arrested" near the flare point, is the hardest item to be trained during line operations.

On touch down the ground spoilers will only partially deploy, which produces a "pitch up" moment. Until the software update and even after the deployment of the update, the pilot flying had to apply some forward control column pressure so as to stop the pitch up moment, which could easliy strike the number 3 VHF aerial at the bottom of the rear fuselage. When the nose gear was lowered to the runway, the ground spoilers then fully extended with subsequent tail engine reverse thrust now being made available (sleeves will not translate fully until nose gear touchdown) Only the wing mounted engines are able to use full reverse thrust with or without nose wheel touch down.

I will make no assumptions as to the cause of this accident except to say that we should leave the experts to voice their findings.

34R
 

772 can operate, not 773. All 744 and 773 flights listed at NRT as either cancelled or indefinite delay.

From the NY Times:

"Video footage of the crash showed a massive fireball erupting from the plane just as it touched down. The plane then veered to its left, skidded off the runway and flipped over. Fire engines rushed to the scene and sprayed the plane with foam."

You gotta wonder if the reporter (Mark McDonald in HK) really watched the same video as us....

As the video shows, a bounced landing can snatch away control of the aircraft almost faster than you can blink. The only real defense is to brief it on approach if it's a possibility and have a plan ready, because you will have zero thinking time once it starts.

By comparison, Capt. Sullenberger had an eternity to consider his options and make his decision.

And the best pilot in the world can get dropped on the runway if a gust knocks 13 knots off the airspeed at just the wrong moment in the flare.

Some years ago I ran into a guy from ANC who was the jumpseat rider on the FedEx MD-11 crash at EWR in 1997. He told me about the initial response to the crash. The aircraft bounced, came down hard, rolled over on its back and burned. The pilots, jumpseat rider and two company pax in the back were able to exit with very minor injuries. When the crash crew rolled up, they thought the five people were spectators who had run across the grass to the crash. They were told to get away. Needless to say, the crash crew's demeanor changed when they realized they were talking to the survivors.

I've seen a couple of different videos online, some show the initial touchdown and bounce, others start with the second, more violent impact with the runway.

As of 1230pm, Narita Airport are unable to say when the Runway will reopen.

Locally they are airing some very high quality HD video of the crash, between that and the FDR's this may turn out to be one of the most clearly documented accidents ever.

Hopefully it will help prevent another.

The first touchdown seems almost normal apart from the rapid nose drop after maingear touchdown. Windshear perhaps?

May it have been so simple as an attempt to catch the rapidly dropping nose caused the aircraft to get airborne again after the nosewheel bounced, but not at flying speed or with speedbrakes now extended, causing the second fatal nose drop?

Power may even have been coming on for a go around but the rapidly dropping nose made the situation unrecoverable?

How quickly things can turn to ****....:(

good day to be at home
 

It looks like after the nose gear collapsed and it was yanked into the air only to stall driving the nose into the ground for the second time. Was it an -11 or a -10 conversion? I spent five years on the -10-30 but never saw any conditions like that. Is it 16L or 34R that has the small valley off the end of the runway? Sad day!

Oscillation followd by over-compensation???

From the CX port page info:

RWY 16L/34R is only 7,100' in length and during normal operation it's use is restricetd to A330/A340 and Boeing 777-200/300 ( excluding 300ER ) with an approved slot on this runway.

Captains only Landing, no contamination allowed. etc

So.........the 777-200's AND 300's ( except ER ) CAN use it WITH an approved slot.

This is obviously CX, but is approved by the NRT authorities and would apply to all operators.

It's hard to see in this footage but it seems like the left wing fails fairly early in the proceedings. Could this be a repeat of the HKG and EWR accidents?

Getting the power on instantly is a problem (so I'm told by those that fly the MD11), not for spool-up time, but the rather pronounced nose down pitch when the number two engine spools-up, and combine this with the known poor pitch response with the reduced horizontal stab/elevator assembly size (versus the DC10 design)...can be a handful in strong winds, 'tis reported.

Indeed, it can get nasty at NRT, gusts to 45 knots or more, not easy.

A wider view of the landing: YouTube - FedEx MD-11 crash landing at RJAA

Metar Rjaa 222100z 30013g28kt 260v330 9999 Few020 13/m01 Q0998 Nosig=
Metar Rjaa 222130z 32026g40kt 9999 Few020 12/m02 Q0999 Ws R34l Nosig=
Metar Rjaa 222200z 31026g40kt 9999 Few020 12/m02 Q1001 Nosig=
Metar Rjaa 222230z 30018kt 9999 Few030 12/m03 Q1001 Ws R34r Tempo 31020g30kt=

Taf Rjaa 222038z 2221/2324 31014kt 9999 Few030 Tempo 2221/2306 31020g30kt Becmg 2309/2312 01008kt=

There was speculation on here that the nose gear collapsed, its very evident in this selection of still images that this was not the case.

Image Gallery on Sky News.com

Dreadful accident and shows what the weather can do.

FedEx MD11 crash
 

The touchdown is a apparently result of rather violent pitch-down at very low altitude. With gusty winds 30-40 degr off the ruway it is likely to be a windshear. Autoland mode or manual flying, a recovery from a situation like this might prove impossible.

Gordonroxburgh, it's evident that it was a main gear failure, but that wasn't the reason, but the outcome. First fails the main gear, the left wing touches the ground, fireball, aircraft turns upside down and slides along.

I guess this thread will become another 100-pager like the AMS-THY one, just because people are speculating why the wreckage lies the way it does - oh dear...! :suspect:

MD-11 At NRT
 

A lot of interesting thoughts here and all true. Having flown the MD-11 for about 5 years and having been to NRT many times, it is one of the more difficult airports due to the treacherous winds that always seem to blow there. However, what no one seems to take into account are the autospoilers. The video "seems" to show that they were on the ground long enough on the initial touchdown for the spoilers to have extended (nose grear touchdown-throttles idle). Another idioscyncracy of the MD-11 is a pitch up tendency with spoiler extention. My thought is that after the hard landing and subsequent nose gear coming down too hard and bouncing back up with the added pitch up of spoiler extention, perhaps they tried a go around. If they had tried that a stall would have been inevitable.

Post#73
 

GG: That video is misleading because it doesn't show the first landing, only the second contact after the first bounce. For a better view of the complete incident see the video in Post # 7, now embedded.

Is not the first MD11 that does not remain side up...is this aircraft prone to end up upside down more than other models?
FSLF

Looked like windshear to me .
The nose went down hard...way too hard .

Faro dc-10 similarities?
 

nasty crash at tokyo, poor crew.very sad...

in dec 1992 a dc-10 crashed on landing at Faro Portugal and rolled over too...55 died.
so did the united dc-10 at sioux city...(but they only had thrust for control)

i know this was a md-11 yesterday which has a small stab but it seems a pattern in c/w or h/w landing accidents with this derivative of the dc-10
EWR and HKG md-11 accidents also as mentioned earlier.

Interesting HQ video of FedEx MD11 in crosswind landing at Narita. Shows just how hard all the flight control surfaces (including the elevator) have to work for a stable approach in stong winds.

YouTube - Crosswind Landing - by FedEx Express McDonnell Douglas MD-11(F) ?N587FE?

What other aircraft has this continual history of cartwheeling and overturning on landing ?

It's notable that of the three somewhat-comparable widebody types that came along in the early to mid 1990s (MD-11, B777, A330), the latter two generally remain in front line service with their original purchasers, while the MD-11 was sold off prematurely by almost all of them. Very few of them remain in passenger service now, despite it being a modern design, and most have been sold off cheaply to cargo operators.

The public story is that the MD-11s were sold off, at some considerable financial loss to the original operators, because its efficiency didn't come up to expectations. But behind the scenes are many who quietly told their boards of directors that as a large-capacity passenger aircraft, with its poor handling capabilities on landing, it was a risk too far.

WHBM
 

The MD-11 wasn't really a modern design. McDDouglas tried to do a quick and cheap derivative of the DC-10. It ended up being neither quick (many delays) nor cheap.

By the time it entered service the 777 and A340 were well under way and were much more efficient: lower weight and operating cost.

Most potential (and existing) customers had lost confidence in McDD by then. Any handling difficulties were just an extra nail....

In Flight Safetys video you can actually see the nose rising when the spoilers deploy.

Interesting.

Horrific. The 2nd touchdown was in a very nose down attitude onto the nose gear. As several have said, the MD11 does seem to have a habit of flipping onto it's back on crash landings (HKG springs to mind)- and even the sioux city DC10 did the same.

The DC10 was a bad design from the start with the cargo door failures (paris crash) and running all 3 hydraulic lines past engine number TWO (when engine no.TWO blew up in the sioux city aircraft it took out all the hydraulics).

Propellerhead,

Not to be pedantic but it was the #2 engine the hyd lines passed by (the engine in the tail)