"Hero" pilot's pay cut, pension stopped
 

Sky News reporting that he's 40% down, and pension scrapped. No word on whether that was before / after the crash landing.

To be clear - there is NO suggestion it's in any way whatesoever linked to the Hudson incident

Link: Hudson River Plane Crash: Hero Pilot Chesley Sullenberger Has Pay Cut And Pension Stopped | World News | Sky News

Mega Dittos
 

Yup - me too club. All post 9/11 - I am down 40% and lost defined pension. Common picture in US airlines.

Salaries and pensions slashed...?
xxx
Common occurence in USA... Since the 1970s...
I was a PanAm pilot, airline bankruptcy in 1991... was hired in 1968.
My PanAm pension is US$ 1,200/month.
xxx
Ask ex-Eastern, or Braniff pilots... same story.
Airline pilots are very rich people.
At least that is what the public believes.
xxx
:confused:
Happy contrails

Sully is spot on.

Do air passengers in the UK know they could be on a plane with a pilot who is paying to be there for hour building? For some pilots who haven't been taken on by the airlines they can pay for their own type ratings and pay to fly to get some hours.

It would make a great 'panorama' or 'dispatches' program to find out what really goes on behind the flight deck door with regards to this.

I wonder how the passengers of that US Airways Jet would have felt if they had a pay-as-you go pilot on board.

And there are some good stories to be told about the quality of these guys, some good but some very bad indeed.

There's little or no selection procedure- it's all a quick buck for the airlines.

Disgrace :ugh:

He & Jeff Skiles are due to come to AirVenture this year. It will be great to have a chance to thank them both for everything they are doing to wake the government and public up to the detrimental change to the average pilot's working life.

BBC NEWS | World | Americas | Hudson pilot urges safety funding

The pilot of a plane that ditched into the Hudson River in New York has called on US airlines to invest more in recruiting and training pilots.

Capt Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger told Congress his pay had been cut by 40% in recent years, and the industry might not attract the "best and brightest".

"The single most important piece of safety equipment is an experienced, well-trained pilot," he said.

He was hailed as a hero after January's landing, which all on board survived.

At the hearing, an air traffic controller recalled the captain telling him he would land in the river, and thinking this was a "death sentence".

Controller Patrick Harten said it felt like hours before he heard of the plane's "heroic landing".

Earlier, Capt Sullenberger told the House committee he and other pilots had seen their wages cut, and that this was deterring potential recruits.

He said it was necessary for companies to refocus on the recruitment and training of pilots, and that this should be "at least as important as their bottom lines".

"We've been hit by an economic tsunami: September 11th, bankruptcies, fluctuating fuel prices, mergers, loss of pensions and revolving door management teams," he said.

Capt Sullenberger said his decision to stay in the airline industry had come at "a great financial cost to me and my family", with his pay cut and pension downgraded.

"It is an incredible testament to the collective character, professionalism and dedication of my colleagues in the industry that they are still able to function at such a high level."

Sullenberger: Pay cuts driving out best pilots - Yahoo! News

WASHINGTON – The pilot who safely ditched a jetliner in New York's Hudson River said Tuesday that pay and benefit cuts are driving experienced pilots from careers in the cockpit.

US Airways pilot Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger told the House aviation subcommittee that his pay has been cut 40 percent in recent years and his pension has been terminated and replaced with a promise "worth pennies on the dollar" from the federally created Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp. These cuts followed a wave of airline bankruptcies after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks compounded by the current recession, he said.

"The bankruptcies were used to by some as a fishing expedition to get what they could not get in normal times," Sullenberger said of the airlines. He said the problems began with the deregulation of the industry in the 1970s.

The reduced compensation has placed "pilots and their families in an untenable financial situation," Sullenberger said. "I do not know a single, professional airline pilot who wants his or her children to follow in their footsteps."

The subcommittee of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee heard from the crew of Flight 1549, the air traffic controller who handled the flight and aviation experts to examine what safety lessons could be learned from the Jan. 15 accident which all 155 people aboard survived.

Sullenberger's copilot Jeffrey B. Skiles said unless federal laws are revised to improve labor-management relations "experienced crews in the cockpit will be a thing of the past." And Sullenberger added that without experienced pilots "we will see negative consequences to the flying public."

Sullenberger himself has started a consulting business to help make ends meet. Skiles added, "For the last six years, I have worked seven days a week between my two jobs just to maintain a middle class standard of living."

It's not the answer to the larger problem of course but Sully has a good offer from Richard Branson.

You can hear the testimony of various groups involved in the Hudson ditching at Transportation and Infrastructure Committee

It's live now, but it'll be retrievable later.

Sully, ALPA and other pilots - and cabin crew - have really used the opportunity skillfully to point out, in their testimony to Congress, how piloting as a profession is being less and less well rewarded, and for no good reason, and that if this continues, pilots and cabin crew in the future are unlikely to match the quality we saw in action on the Hudson. Who, of any quality (educational, aspirational etc), will want to do it?

Such a brilliant speech! Apart from his exemplary handling of the incident itself, if he keeps this up, we will all owe him a huge debt of gratitude. It is well overdue that these issues are brought before the media.

It is all soooo true. And so sad that the travelling public dont realise that their 'cheap' fares come at the expense of safety. The safety that comes from highly skilled, well paid proffessionals. Not rich kids or mercenaries.

ATC thought they were done
 

I seem to remember perhaps last year or the year before, something about AA pilots taking early retirement and that it may have had something to do with locking in their pension value or something like that. Did that turn out for those that retired early to be a smart financial move based on what has happened to the stock market?

Thanks.

While I decry where our beloved profession has gone, it was at my beginning 40 years ago, I was given this by a UAL DC-8 F/O:

It would be a great job if:

I made as much money as my in-laws think

Got as much poontang as my wife thinks

Had as much time off as my neighbor thinks

T&C may change, but human nature is immutable

How do you propose we fix this? Realistically, the only jobs out there are the moment are for those able to fund their own type ratings. Short of the government paying, this problem can only be solved from within.

Too often I read this website to find yet more moaning about new low hour pilots self-funding their type ratings. Do you think that they do this for fun? Because Daddy has handed them a blank cheque? You may be concerned about your own job (and rightly so) but as senior pilots within the airline you are best positioned to halt this trend.

No, it cannot be solved from within. The past has shown that after every downturn, the entry fee (paying the training, then also paying the rating, and thereafter also paying the line training on top of it all) has risen and remains there. The market is too competetive at this level, unions seem to have been unable to stop it.
Airlines' sole purpose is to earn money. One thing that would end "paying for line training" was if passengers were to quit flying airlines that engage in this kind of scheme. Making them aware of this problem is a necessary first step.

This subject has been done to death ad nauseum both here and elsewhere...

It will always come back to the same thing... pax want safety above all other considerations... with the exception that is of paying for it.

Hey I got an idea why don't you start another thread along the idea of

Flights at risk as pilots refuse to accept 'demeaning' pay to learn

I'm sure the passengers will understand:bored:

Do you mean that you can assure me 100% safe flight if I pay the right amount?

'Do you mean that you can assure me 100% safe flight if I pay the right amount? '

Yes, FSLF if you pay enough you wont crash because then the pilot has enough cash to pay off the birds---that's what they mean:rolleyes:

Jim Henson you really created a classic I say--- a classic

Operators and TRTOs will all say that safety is never compromised even with a pay as you fly pilot.
At the end of the day, if FO Bloggs has £30k spare, he can opt to obtain a type rating of his choice. At the end, he still needs to pass the required skills test and obtain satsifactory reports from the TRI. No amount of money (not yet at least!!) will make an unsafe pilot pass these hoops.
So on Day 1 of his line training, we have FO Bloggs who has self sponsored his TR and FO Speakin who has received his TR from a bonded airline scheme.
Both have the same hoops to pass once again and positive progress must be made each flight. Passengers on their flights will not know who is actually flying as equal standards will have been instilled at the training stage.

Although I may agree that the Self sponsored TR route is causing T&Cs to fall, the media will not have any leg to stand on. (Unless of course the financial burden is shown to affect performance).

We should not sideline these pilots who follow these routes. Potentially this may increase conflict within the flightdeck environment between pilots.

Hmmm, and how many experienced and 'non-deserving' pilots (that is if the SSTR pilot community are indeed 'deserving') would be unfairly put out of work in that scenario?

Failed plan, let's hear the next one... :rolleyes:

How does it go? "If the airlines pay you peanuts, then expect monkeys to do the job!"

Only one problem, when I'm SLF I don't want a monkey up there in the cockpit :( and when I'm on the flight deck I don't want SLF calling me a monkey either!:=

MB

to pay or play??
 

Since I have started this career 22 yrs ago , I have always been amazed at the way we pilots organized ourselves. We have great CRM skills but lousy negotiating skills. When it comes to pulling the crew together and getting the job done we are all one for all and all for one , but when it comes down to the pocket book we are just one for oneself. I have been out of work now for the first time in all those years and its down right frustrating to hear of people paying cash for the right to fly...sorry but I have never payed for my experience except through hard work, studying and perseverance mixed in with a bit of luck....and some people just waltz in with cash and in they go to the right seat of a jet. When I had 200hrs I wasn't even allowed to get a ramp pass to see the big jet. I understand that people want,need to have a job, and the bean counters have taken full advantage of it . This used to be an industry where each company was responsible for their own training and quality but they have turned that responsibility over to others that just look at the cash some sap will pay them in order to sit in a jet. Could you imagine what a court would like if we could pay our way in as a lawyer, let alone a hospital surgery with pay as you go doctors!!! I love it when a 1500 hr pilot says " I could be Captain in another year " !!! sorry where do I get oceanic clearance again ?"

boeingbus2002. You make a fair point that we all have to pass the same tests. Fair enough. But you can never say to what standard a sim test, for instance, was completed. An outstanding pilot with fantastic skills will still get the same stamp as a guy who has had to do a test three times, and even then only just scrapes through.

Where it all falls to pieces is when these guys that have never had a single real life emergency are tested in the air, are they experienced enough to deal with it and not panic and so on?

Mark my words, its only a mater of time until a training captain goes tits up and a 300 hour f/o is confronted with bad weather and an emergency of some sort at the same time. Lets pray that when that day comes it is a switched on type that can still manage to get through it. But if it is one of these 'just scraper throughers'.......

Pax speaking
MungoPYes. Things only change when enough people have died. We see that across all tribes in all cultures. The airline owners tribe is no different.

unb5That sounds like the human race at work! It is the drive of individual humans that drives others forward too.


I think it is grand what Captain Sullenberger has said after he was given the platform to speak. His abilities to make the most out of the calm waters of the ebbing Hudson tide are of the highest order. He is fortunate to be able to speak out. If he were very young and just made Captain, looking to a long career, he would probably not have been able to speak so freely. Sadly, it will make no difference - YET - it will put a marker in the public record for the next prang and that is good.

Crew Info
 

I think that in addition to the Captain's, FO's and Cabin Crew's names on the bulkhead behind the cockpit, certain pertinent information should be posted.

Capt. Jones has X number of hours total time; Y hrs in type and he makes $Z/year. However, his pension has been cut, so he's hoping that retirement age is upped to 80.

First Officer Smith is currently paying to fly this BIG pretty airplane, and, if he seems overwhelmed, please be patient. We're all pulling for him to pass the test, however the company has to make money somehow.

The Cabin Crew qualifies for Food Stamps, and they all share a flat near the airport.

This way the SLF can make up their own minds....

Wouldn't cheaper, more available access, through affordable training schemes (sponsorships, scholarships, apprenticeships...), be a better way of ensuring safety?

As opposed to enticing "suitable candidates" through large salaries and an ability to front up the cash for 30-60k ab anitio training package?

..which may already have happened?

Some good words written by the well-known Barry Schiff...


The glory years are gone.

I have been agonizing over the topic of this column for a few years, not knowing if I should publicly air my personal thoughts. Not to do so, I finally concluded, would be intellectually dishonest. So at the risk of attracting flak, here goes.

I was hired as a pilot by Trans World Airlines in 1964. This was during the glamour years that began after World War II. Airline salaries were rising, working conditions improved with every contract renewal, and airline pilots earned approval and respect from every quarter. On international flights, airline pilots were treated like royalty.
No one working for Pan American World Airways or TWA during this period could possibly have anticipated the demise of their airlines. These were cultural icons of the twentieth century. At one time, TWA's logo was the second most recognizable in the world (Coca-Cola's was the first).

The death knell for this era sounded on October 24, 1978, when President Jimmy Carter signed the Airline Deregulation Act. The merits and demerits of deregulation aside, the long-term result for pilots was etched in stone. There would be an erosion of wages, working conditions, pensions, and job security.
Things got worse after the terrorist attacks of 9/11. Because of the need for additional security, airline pilots are locked in their cockpits behind bulletproof doors and suffer the indignity of coordinating trips to the lavatory with flight attendants.

I could not have been prouder when my son Brian was hired by TWA in 1989. Although conditions had declined since the airlines were deregulated, being an airline pilot was still a great job. He upgraded to captain on the Boeing 727 11 years later. Although thrilled to be in the left seat of a jetliner for a major carrier, he worked harder and earned a smaller salary than I did many years previously. TWA was assimilated by American Airlines in 2001. During the next two years Brian went from left seat to right seat to the street. He had been furloughed and eventually found a job flying Learjets for a Part 135 operator. He now flies as captain of a Canadair Regional Jet for a commuter carrier.
Like thousands of others who have been furloughed from the majors, he has no idea when he will be recalled. Considering that American is reducing its need for pilots by contractual increases in pilot productivity and outsourcing many of its shorter, thinner routes to commuter carriers, it could be many years before Brian again sees an American Airlines' flight deck.

Another of my sons, Paul, began to satisfy his desire to become an airline pilot in 2000 when he was hired by Trans States Airline, a company that operated TWExpress, US Airways Express, and AmericanConnection. Paul bounced between all three and discovered after 9/11 that he was not making headway in accruing seniority.
After four domicile changes, he opted to leave Trans States and obtain a more promising position with United Express. He worked there for three years, during which he had as many changes in domicile, and discovered that the most he had earned after six years as a commuter pilot was less than $30,000 per year. He again foresaw little potential for a career like I had and with great mental anguish opted to change professions.

Paul recently started a pet-supply company, gets to spend every night in his own bed, and has an opportunity to develop a social life. As an airline pilot gone from home 21 days a month, he had little opportunity to meet someone with whom he might like to share a future. When he did meet someone, he had neither the time nor the money for dating.
Paul says, "It is relatively easy to get a job with a commuter carrier, but not because these carriers are losing pilots to the majors; they are not. The attrition rate at the regional level is high because so many pilots reach their limits of endurance and quit. They find it too difficult to live on starvation wages [especially those with families]. There usually was nothing left in my wallet after shelling out for commuting and crash-pad expenses."

Although these are anecdotal experiences, my frank and personal discussions with numerous other airline pilots corroborate my feelings about the state of the airline industry. I can no longer encourage aspiring airline pilots without first ensuring that they understand the treacherous and daunting journeys typically required to reach for such lofty goals.
Do not misunderstand. Coping with the challenges of weather, communing with nature in a way that only pilots can appreciate, and maneuvering a sophisticated aircraft from one place on Earth to another remains a stimulating and gratifying endeavor (although I think it was more fun with less automation). It is the price one must pay to get there that is so discouraging.

I frequently am asked for advice about becoming an airline pilot. The best advice I can offer those determined to endure the rigorous hardships often required is to simultaneously develop a sideline vocation that can be used in case of emergency. A pilot should never get into a position that is totally dependent on income from an airline.
Does the end justify the means? Does becoming a captain for a major airline justify all that must be endured to get there? Perhaps, but surviving long enough to get there is the problem.

Counter Points Just Arond The Corner?
 

I imagine it's only a matter of time before the bean counters at the airlines and the official spokes-holes at the Air Transport Association (the trade / lobbying arm of the U.S. airline industry) will start making some counterpoints to a naive news media, such as, "With all the doom and gloom Capt. Sullenberger has mentioned, the U.S. airline industry has just come off one of its longest unblemished safety records in its history."

Also known as putting lipstick on a pig. :ugh:

Let's get something straight. Regardless of this testimony, nobody in Congress give's half of a rat's petutie about airline pilot compensation. Nor does the traveling public. Congress and the government are the same self-serving incompetents that brought you the economic meltdown of the entire economy. It's not until it becomes a full fledged work stoppage and crisis that it will get any attention.

Hard financial choices
 

Both of my sons became commercial pilots with me funding them fully up to that level with IF ratings. Youngest son flew for a while, loved it but found that the career journey was too fraught with uncertainties and switched to the IT industry, with an American software leader.
Eldest son persevered, got to ATP level, got into jets, and in time, into the left hand seat of a 737. Airline went belly up, no benefits, unemployed for three months. Got a job in the rh seat of a good company in 737s again.
Son in IT world now clears about double the salary each month compared to the FO son!
The aviation world is not looking after the new generation.

This thread saddens me greatly---All True!!
:(

PA

I am very sadly considering a career change. I'm aware of all outlined above and the current financial crisis is only going to push pensions, t's and c's in one direction. Anyone know any other exciting career options that are not being eroded as ours is?

I'm completely with rebellion on the dispatches/panorama idea. Recent events spring to mind where piloting experience could be used to remind the paying public what they're paying for.

I'm not usually a fan of sensationalism, but for the sake of the future of the profession...

I like Sully, he is doing us a great service.

But as long as we all act independently and selfishly we have no chance of improving this situation. The "Shiney Jet Syndrome" forces one aviator to gladly undercut another in order to fill a seat. Thus T&C's are inevitably decimated by understandably opportunistic, short-term managerial types.

The only potential saving grace for us is that, wisely few people are entering the industry but there are squillions of aircraft on order. After the recession, somebody will have to fly them b ut there won't be that many somebodies!

Today I am retiring after 39 years in the flying and I wish to I thank Sully for putting into words my feeling about our industry. It was a well respected and paid job when I set out but has deteriorated to levels I could never have imagined. I certainly would be hard pressed to find a reason to encourage anyone to join the business now.
Whilst I have worked with some incredible and dedicated people and will miss them greatly, I will not miss the threatment I have been subjected to over recent years by so called security staff, particularly in the USA.
Safe flying to you all but make no mistake, Sully got it right.

Well said, Fly3.

I don't know whether you've just invented a new word, but I like "Threatment". It happens a lot these days.

It is indeed sad to see the T & Cs being pushed the way they are. For those of you who have a job but is still considering a career change I can tell you what I have done.

Over the past 6 months I resigned from my job to start a new one, got fired ("financial crises, sorry got to let you go") and found a new job. I had a lot of bad luck but then it turned for me and I hit the jackpot.
In the current financial climate I managed to land a pretty awesome job and I'm loving it! My attitude to this circus change somewhat after this experience and I realized that I cannot continue to have my entire life depending this business. So starting May I will get back to university and study part time and work my way towards another degree. I have decided that I need to keep myself flying for another 4-5 years and then I have a solid backup plan should things go t**s up.
There is another thread running on a similar subject (what do you do with you time when business is slow) and there are some more, and some less, creative ideas how to make some extra money. In my opinion there are no short cuts though. If you go out on the job market trying to start a new career you have to remember that most of the time you are competing with some highly skilled and trained people with many years of university studies behind them. So for me there is only one way to go and that is via a university or one of many private institutes offering courses.

I wish you all good luck with your future careers!

bjb

In the early nineties my father made $225 an hour to fly left seat in the 747-200. That is the equivalent of $320 an hour today, accounting for inflation.

The same seat, the same company today pays $168.

Oh and he also had a six-figure pension waiting on him when he retired - also gone now.

That said, I still love my job - even though my sentence in the right seat just got 5 years tacked on.....

The state of the situation in Europe today is the reason why I am happier flying a desk for an NAA and only flying about 5-15 hours a month, than flying the line. The NAA have been pinched, especially by the current situation so my salary is really only on par with a local FOs, but I have NEVER in my 17 year career had to pay my own type rating and I never will, I get as much time off as I want (and get to take it when I need it), I get to pursue my other work uninterrupted and I do not have to sit right hand seat to a "boy" who has been promoted up to LHS within 2 years of getting his first job.

The article by Schiff really hits home for me. Like Schiff and his son, I have built up experience in many different aircraft types in both RHS and LHS positions, only to find myslef as a redundant piece of bean-counter's dischargable "excess fat".

I know of no-one post 9/11 who has secured a jet job without a current TR. All of the turboprop guys I know who were lucky enough to get an airline sponsorship are now working for enough money to give them the choice between covering their living expenses or covering their loan repayments - not a nice decission to have to make.

Last month a jet SFO came to me with some good news. He had just received a pay rise. After I congratulated him, he told me that he was now earning ALMOST enough to cover the interest on his loans, and now they were only rising by a few tens of Euro each month instead of hundreds.

Of the Captains I know, there are only two types who seem comfortable; those who came into the industry today already qualified (e.g. had started their careers before the early 90s), and those who have come into aviation as a second career and had acrued sufficient wealth in their previous career to fund their training. Of the others the picture is not so clear.

I am not saying that all the perks we used to get in this industry were justified. The extreme of this being FR who I believe make their crews pay for their parking permits. Is the parking permit a right of the aviation worker? I would like to think yes, but in most other industries the answer is no - I can see FR's point. Where I work, transport is not an issue, but in the UK or USA, the car is a lifeline without which it is impossible for a crew to get to work for that 5am start.

Sure, increasing the benefits package for crew would impact on ticket prices, but as yield management is used by almost all airlines these days, it would not necessarily have to impact on the marketing system or the bottom line - Just adjust the break even point in your yield management programme to reflect your greater overhead. Passenger can still have his $10 ticket if he is early enough, while crews can have remuneration and consideration comensurate with the positions they hold and the expense they have faced.

Until such time as the situation changes, I am happy to stay as far away from the line as is humanly possible. Sure, in my current position I am only on a crumby FO salary, but my quality of life has never been better. I would not sell that out to become a slave to a farsical seniority programme. My bed at night, my lifestyle and the integrity of my marriage are all too important to me to sell out for the benefit of a bean-counter. I am one experienced pilot who has been lost to line flying because of this situation, I am sure I am not the only one.

RIX

Well put Sully.

It has affected me too.

Pension cut 50% (Barp dc scheme), pay cut imminent?

BA pilot!

And Willy would like me to suggest ways I could give back more because there's is only £1.6 Billion in the bank account.

Wouldn't that be nice if a huge pay raise could stop aircrafts falling from the sky !!
In the 60's when Pan Am pilots were hooning around the planet, they also were scatering aircraft remains about at a very high rate.
Safety has increased by a s...t load of folds in the last 4 decades while salaries were steadily decreasing. So ???
As to Sully, well fellows.............how many Sully's among us ???? If I may ask. Can anyone here claim he would have done the same thing ??? I for one don't know and I have been flying aroung JFK a lot these past weeks.
So forgive me for saying that I find all this a tad far streched to claim that fat salaries would turn all of us into potential Sully's.

In reply to the above quote, I can promise you that the current situation is going to show how many pilots are prepared to fly for nothing, pay for their type ratings and accept any working condition.
Commercial aviation is shrinking and the beancounters are, sure as egg, going to have a lovely time. Finding pilots will be absolutly no problem for them.
So Sully, I salute you for what you did; I pray to God the same doesn't happen to me so I don't find out what I am made of. Congress doesn't give a tinkle fairy's a..s about how much you bring home or that you have to work 2 jobs, nor does the public and sadly, nor will your pax once they've started moving on with their lives.
You did honour.................well, to yourself and your family and you blew me away on CBS 60 minutes. Until I do what you did I will not use your fame and skills to claim a few pennies.