Kestrel MAYDAY
 

Just coming out of MAN/EGCC last night and heard that MAN CTRL 134.425 had a Kestrel MAYDAY joining them. We kept a listen out but got transfered to LON a few minutes later.
Any news anyone?
Most of all. Everyone safe and sound I hope!

Posted 15:29 today.

bla bla bla etc.

No, hundreds killed, including scores of infants in school hit by aircraft. National press and tv have remained silent out of respect. :hmm:

Avman,

on the face of it your reply seems pretty crass. It would appear someone was either in trouble or at least deeply worried, so just because it didn't make the news ( i.e. a good outcome ) one should not take the P' & possibly deter the next guy, who really IS in trouble, from calling.

Oh, the drama :eek:

Somehow I doubt that when/if the sh!t hits the fan I'll consider what someone my or may not write on an internet forum before declaring a mayday, nor can I think of any other professional pilot who's likely to do so.


Purlleeeeeease :rolleyes:

Thanks for your support:ok:
I didn't even think it AVMAN warranted a reply.
I guess all was O.K. As I haven't seen any references to it in the media thus far.

Double Zero, I think you failed to see the point of my cynical post. I just found it odd for a professional pilot making an enquiry (no problem with that by the way) some 20 odd hours after hearing a MAYDAY call to end his question with "everyone safe and sound I hope". My point was that if there had been anything worth reporting it would have been splashed across the front pages of the press. I've seen other curious posters blasted by pilots for much less in these forums.

And then he comes back with:

Exactly!!! :ugh::ugh::ugh:

Guys

I was the controller on Manch Wallasey last night when the Mayday was reluctantly declared. Nothing too exciting just the right engine showing absolutely no oil level whatsoever so the engine was shut down about 15 miles south of Nokin (possibly to protect the engine itself) which unfortunately triggers an automatic Mayday for all concerned. The aircraft was given a left hand circuit via Dayne and obviously got an expeditious arrival to land safely on 23. The guys up the front were textbook throughout.:D

why? I would have thought a PAN to be more appropriate

Im not questioning the actions of the crew involved, just the above statement, did ATC action the MAYDAY?

The aircraft was a Boeing 757-300 therefore a 50% loss of power is an automtic Mayday as far as ATC is concerned.

I would assume it is an automatic MAYDAY because they had just lost 50% of their propulsion!!

A PAN, would IMHO, be sufficient for an aircraft with more than 2 engines assuming it was, as this seems to be, a precautionary shut-down.

<<did ATC action the MAYDAY?>>

There is no special "action" other than providing separation from other traffic and assisting the aircraft in trouble as much as possible. Later on, airfield safety services would have been alerted if still required. That's it, no lights flash, no supervisors "take over"; the guy/lady wearing the electric hat just gets on with it...

This comes up from time to time so if you do a search you'll find more detail.

In the UK certainly, ATC has a variety of different categories of emergency that can be declared - none is called mayday or PAN. ATC decide, either on the basis of experience and professional judgement or procedures, what category to declare. ATC can declare an emergency even if the pilot does not make a mayday or PAN call. If a pilot does make an emergency call, ATC will certainly declare some level of emergency.

Mayday
 

Why the reluctance from some people to put out a Mayday call? The Pan / Mayday dilemma is down to command choice but In the case of an engine failure / shut-down I don't think I would have a problem putting out a Mayday. It gets everyone thinking along the correct lines, gives focus and gives the Emergency Services something to do. In my experience they chomp at the bit to do something so you shouldn't feel guilty about putting them to some inconvenience (they would come out for a Pan anyway). If you later downgrade to Pan then you've already made your point and everyone will be there to help. Some places overseas might not get 'Pan' anyway.;):E:eek::ok:

As an experienced yachtie, and also having done a lot of flying ( unqualified ) sitting alongside the best Test Pilots, it strikes me as a 'Pan' call too, but if the rules say 'Mayday' then what the hell, as a previous poster said, it gives the airfield services something to do, and they're there in case the situation gets worse.

I'm saying this in the hope that it won't in some perverse way be held against the Captain's record - with large companies such as this, often with a 'human resources' dept. run by little girls, nothing would surprise me.

BTW When our airfileld's Personnel Dept changed into Human Resources - briefly, while they were dumping the most useful people, so I got away with it -, I asked them "why not go the whole hog and call it meat-based guidance & maintenance assets' ? "

I was met with a blank look - there's more to this story but I'll spare you for now.

Interesting point though, is that IF there are no other supporting parameters, zero oil quantity, is categorically not a reason for engine shutdown on RB211-535 as fitted to B7575 as per Boeing and RR operating instructions. e.g there is no QRH item.

However, crew may have reported just the basics at that stage with out elaboration and once the engine was shutdown, then a Mayday is quite correct IMHO.

Shutting down an engine with zero oil quantity
 

It is quite feasible to have sufficient oil to keep the engine running normally, even though the indicated oil quantity is zero. This applies to more than just Rolls Royce engines. There have been previous instances of engine shutdowns unnecessarily. Of course, zero oil pressure is something different. If the oil filler cap has not been replaced, on some engines, venting can occur to the extent that enough oil will disappear to the extent of zero indicated quantity, but sufficient oil remains for the engine to operate.

Shirley,

If an engine is indicating no oil, it may or may not keep running, but the last thing one needs is something which may pack up or pick up; better to shut it down so one knows the situation ?

Also less damage to the afflicted engine, but that's a minor consideration.

The Captain's decision (and he is the only person able to make that decision) was to declare a Mayday. END OF ARGUMENT.

Double Zero

The point being made is that, certainly according to our SOPS, an engine is not shutdown if the oil quantity reads zero and all other parameters remain normal.

Zero Indicated Oil Qty
 

As others have said, there is no reason to shut an engine down due to an indication of zero oil quantity IF oil pressure and oil temperature remains within limits. One would have to suppose that the operating crew would have been well aware of that and only reported loss of oil quantity to ATC. Whether a MAYDAY or PAN is declared is purely up to the crew and their assessment of the situation.

Why not? Any excuse for a bit of single engine practise. The guys probably had a sim coming up. :}

I don't understand why anyone would question a mayday call if you had to shut one engine down in a twin.

Skippers decision, Engine dead. Mayday please. You can always downgrade it if needs be.

oneowl,

For an aircraft operating with 50% power, it is an automatic Full Emergency for ATC - NOT an automatic MAYDAY. Only the commander can declare a MAYDAY or PAN. Suggest you consult your LCE.

PPL here, so please be gentle.

Isn't one difference between pan and mayday the runway state, as in pan doesn't guarantee a sterile runway and mayday does?

My personal experience only extends to light twins and I realise that these are very different to 757s, but were I on one engine, I would wish for a sterile runway, as I wouldn't fancy a one engined go around and diversion in the event of a runway incident.

Final 3 greens. At major airports, emergencies will be given priority but, inevitably, there will be traffic ahead; you simply cannot close a runway for an indefinite period. ATC will provide more separation to ensure a landing clearance but there is no instruction I was ever aware of which specified what you have described..

I think a good few people on here don't understand that Mayday and PAN are simply communication codes to indicate to ATC that a problem exists. Subsequent action taken by ATC to alert emergency services then depends on what the crew tell them about the problem.

I don't think any pilot would be criticised for calling a Mayday which was later found to be inappropriate. Better to be safe than sorry.

Mayday ensures radio silence from all other traffic (or it should), pan doesn't require this. Or at least it did when I studied for my atpl.

Surely radio silence does not happen unless ATC specifically advise, or maybe the rules have changed?

My CAP413 states: The aircraft in distress or the station in control of a distress incident may impose silence either on all stations in the area or on any particular station that interferes with distress transmissions. In either case, the message should take the following form....

To me that means radio silence is not automatic..

By radio silence i mean, all other aircraft on freq should not transmit unless spoken to by ATC. Sorry, should have made that clearer. So if you're a pilot and you hear someone declare a mayday, shut up!

This whole thread is just a giant "so what".

Nothing much happened, obviously, as it didn't make the news.

ATC and pilots operated according to SOPs, as they are trained to do. Why is anyone surprised about that?

Definitions of PAN and MAYDAY are freely available on the web, so no debate there. It's really very simple:

1.2 States of Emergency
1.2.1 The states of emergency are classified as follows:
a) Distress A condition of being threatened by serious and/or imminent danger and
of requiring immediate assistance.
b) Urgency A condition concerning the safety of an aircraft or other vehicle, or of
some person on board or within sight, but does not require immediate assistance.
1.2.2 The pilot should make the appropriate emergency call as follows:
a) Distress ‘MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY’
b) Urgency ‘PAN PAN, PAN PAN, PAN PAN’

(http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP413.PDF)

Just parse the above according to your company SOPs...

HD

Thanks for your comment.

With your background, you obviously know a lot more about this than I do.

There was a comment on the famous '3 engined 744" thread that implied the runway was "assured" for a mayday aircraft before it began it's approach, as no departing traffic would be allowed.

Possibly I misunderstood that comment, so now I am englightened, thanks for that.

ATCO Two

Thank you for your kind words. Let's not get too technical between Full Emergencies and Maydays, my actions would have been no different regardless of what the pilot "declared" based on the information presented to me. For the record it was the pilot who declared the Mayday. Without being too blunt I will consult my LCE, may I suggest you Fu*k right off and we'll see how you cope in a similar situation:ok:

It is called Crying Wolf. Sending out a Mayday for an engine shut down immediately denigrates the original true purpose of the call which is to advise all those listening on the frequency in use that the aircraft is in imminent danger of crashing/ditching and help is needed. Clearly the aircraft was not in a Mayday situation. A PAN call is quite sufficient unless you are a drama queen.

Rubbish. Coming out with comments like that are nonsense. Why did it fail? Is there a chance to other one is about to go? Have you got a fire? etc.etc.

Saying that all engine failures should only be a PAN is nonsense. It is the commanders decision at the time and none of us should second guess it. You do what is appropriate at that time. If that means you chuck in a MAYDAY, then so be it.

I wouldn't have shut the engine down unless other parameters confirmed the engine was cooking. Idle it, take the best bits of the Engine Failure/shutown checklist and the best bits of the One Engine Inop landing checklist and divert to nearest suitable airport. Pan call is sufficient according to my companies part A. I remember that a Boeing test flight crew had to shut an engine down whilst etops certing the 737ng (700). The engineer in the back requested the shutdown. They limped back to Boeing Field for nearly 3 hours on the remaining. They didn't tell atc anything just that they were operating at reduced speed. Obviously they could have cranked up the cooked engine again if needed. I really hope the kestrel engine was completely cooked and that other parameters were out of limits before they shutdown, or I believe they unneccesarily risked a lot of lives.

Are you about to crash?
 

Yes, the commander gets to decide what state of operations is notified - either, I am in a state of operations that is currently safe but requires expedited handling to minimise the exposure to further risk (Pan Pan), or, I am in immediate danger of losing control of my aircraft or the situation (mayday). It is possible that an engine failure may lead to the second operational state, but in most situations it should not - if it did, then the whole certification bases and training requirements would be based on a false premise.

I think that you carefully analyse what situation you face and make an appropriate and relevant call. I have severe reservations about this theory that a Mayday call is the universal call of first choice - I think that approach is as silly as that where people refuse to declare their situation at all!

I am drawn to the continued arguments year after year on this board about the use of PAN vs MAYDAY.

I mean the arguments are endless and for what purpose?

If it is a subjective call then why argue about the actions of a specfic Captain after each event.

If it shouldn't be a subjective call then where is it so written?

Does something need to be changed? if so where?

4 dogs/A37575......Completely agree.

If the 'MAYDAY first' school (of which there are many) doesn't like the definition which is 100% clear, then (internationally) redefine it. Otherwise, using MAYDAY for less than MAYDAY (as per) definition devalues its meaning.

An twin-engined aircraft that is certified to operate on 1 engine, unless there are additional threatening circumstances, is not 'threatened by serious and/or imminent danger'. It's a PAN, IMHO :D I

If you are down to any one major system, (ie engine, hydraulics, electrics etc) on the Boeing then its a Mayday..period

In my last airline - how do other gauges tell you if the engines "cooking"?

Indication of oil pressure loss with normal oil pressure/temp is most likely a gauge/transmitter failure. If oil pressure/temp are not normal it indicates loss of oil quantity.

Are you saying with loss of oil pressure and high temperature you'd continue running the engine? And that you'd run the engine until it was "completely cooked" before shutting it down?