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Air France Pilot Strike - where's the news?
A four-day pilots' strike, starting tomorrow, will ground at least half Air France flights. No sign of anything in R&N, nor in Airlines & Airports, nor in the French forum.
As far as my French goes, it seems to be in protest against the proposed raising of the retirement age to 65. Baffled. I thought pilots got militant about the lowering of retirement age. What's it all about? |
This is on the travel agents private page
OTHER SUBJECTS National Pilots' Strike from 14 to 17 November 2008 French airline pilots? unions have unanimously called a four-day strike from Friday 14 November at one minute past midnight to Monday 17 November at midnight, to protest against changes to the retirement age currently under discussion in the French Parliament (changing from 60 to 65). Air France is expecting very severe disruptions to its operations. As things stand, the approximate estimation for Air France for Friday 14 November is the cancellation of half its long-haul flights from Paris and the same for medium-haul flights. More cancellations to long-haul flights are expected as the strike progresses. Information will be updated as the situations evolves. |
Going on strike is a national sport in which if it were to qualify for olympics the French would win gold medals even without attending.
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Flyers beware... when the airline goes on strike, the lambs (ATC) are sure to follow... and without notice.:ugh:
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Nuclearweapon
Your Consideration About The French Are Absolutly Besides The Point In This Forum. If You Want We I Can Give You Some Exemples About Your Culture And Behaviour But It Would Be Very Inapropriate In This Forum. So Why Don't You Log On To Another Website For That Matter??? Moderators Moderate Please |
Neighbour was due to travel from Malaga to Dubai via CDG on AF tomorrow.
He was advised yesterday of the strike and his agent has switched him to LH/Spanair. Despite the strike being said to be over on Monday, his return flights next Friday have been switched to Star Alliance as well. His agent does not trust the French to have fully resolved their dispute by then. |
sud747
So you are denying the that the French go on strike MANY times a year??? In all different occupations?
We are talking about the same République française arent we? Take a chill pill, its just a bit of fun! |
Air France striking over retirement age ? No surprise there considering the fat retirement package that comes with the old world pay and conditions they enjoy in their protected environment. Who would want to continue beyond 60 ?
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French unionisation and old school labour relations have always meant that they are prone to striking more than the Brits. Its a whole different mindset IMHO, but in the current climate with traffic loads declining on a daily basis and airlines losing money left right and centre, one has to question whether Air France can suffer this? The government bailing them out is not something that can be endured for any period of time at the moment.
It sounds like a re-play of Alitalia :eek: |
The clocks do seem to run differently in France. We all know the arguments in favour and against. Fact is that nearly all countries have come into line on age 65.
Maybe one of the many well informed french pilots on this site can explain rationally what this is all about. A four day strike at what seems short notice seems a bit over the top. It is stretching disbelief that it can be unanimous as some pilots clearly have a lot to gain. Ironically Air France as an employer benefits if older and more expensive pilots are forced to retire at 60 or earlier. This was after all the reason age 60 was sponsored by the large american airlines in the early days. |
Air France striking over retirement age ? No surprise there considering the fat retirement package that comes with the old world pay and conditions they enjoy in their protected environment. Who would want to continue beyond 60 ? Autobrake3, You seem to know something I don't. A fat retirement package ??? I wished !!! it is nothing but a laugh. More than 80 % of AF pilots voted against retirement beyhond 60 almost 2 years ago. A very small but extremely active group of pilots called PNT65 ( in and outside AF ) with their own agenda ( like fourth wive, alemonied to their ears or no life ) lobbied (very effectively I have to say,) while SNPL was embroiled in its usual constant and useless bickering with, crowning moment, the recently elected chairman handing out his resignation at the beginning of summer after only a few weeks in office, leaving a huge void that was never filled. The " PNT 65" group had a field day lobbying parliament with no one challenging their claims as no election was held until " La rentrée " or end of summer holliday. If you've not lived a typical french " rentrée " then you've missed out on life !! The newly elected board is made of an interesting mix starting with its chairman, clearly in favor of 65, being overruled by his council who just voted the strike. This is the very man we will see on TV explaining, serious as a heart attack, why the pilots are on srike. Don't say a word.............I know !!! Now as to the reasons of the strike : Back a couple of weeks ago, in the middle of the night, the french parliament voted an amendment pushing retirement age to 65 after the Transport Secretary, in a letter dated December 2007, swore the rule would never be changed unless talks were held between the government, the pilots and the airlines. No such talks ever took place. If that isn't back stabbing then what is !!! Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't BA, although the law in the UK says 65 still retires its pilots at 60. KLM at 56 and Lufthansa at...... 56 when the law in Germany says 67 ??? The french law doesn't allow AF to have its own collective agreement to by pass that bill. This would be regarded as discrimination. Hence the strike being the only way to try to oppose this bill. Air France would have signed such an agreement with both hands, there would have been no strike and exept for a hanfull, everybody would have walked out happy. They never showed any interest in having pilots over 60 and always very clearly said it. As an employer, they can only stick to the law. They are clearly being punished for something they haven't done and were never interested in having in the first place. Young F/O's are pissed as hell and it doesn' really matter wether senior captains strike or not, they won't have a copilot to fly with. It is the worst timing for a strike. I never saw a good one either. Now, I'm sure this forum will be in no shortage of people explaining how very fitt and fantastic they are at 63 and how they prove it 5 times day to their nearest and dearest after a 14 hours night flight; how the french , once again, have lost the plot BUT : All it comes to is , a minority deciding for a clearly decided majority and the Governement lying its toush off ( I know, nothing new ). Unfortunatly, the reaction will me matching the outrage with dire consequences for the airlines and their employees. Ironically Air France as an employer benefits if older and more expensive pilots are forced to retire at 60 or earlier. This was after all the reason age 60 was sponsored by the large american airlines in the early days. Short notice ?? In this case they were given 3 weeks notice. Hardly rushed wouldn't you say ?? No airline in its right mind is going to herald a strike 3 weeks in advance facing the very real risk to see booking cancelations by the thousands. In the newt few days, the governement will come out looking as innocent as a virgin claiming they were offering all kind of sweeteners, which will probably be right. The idea the french have of negociating goes as follow : -" I am going to screw you big time " -People clearly not relishing the prospect -People stop working disrupting other people's life which isn't exactly a picnic right now. - Governement says again " I am going to screw you even harder than originally planned. - People even more cranky disrupt even more by which time hoodle of money has been wasted. - When governement assesses situation as having reached its " bargaining point " agrees to give all it was prepared to give from the start. - People walk away with everything they were ready to accept from the start. - Strike takes place anyway as airlines have already canceled flights and passengers gone to other airlines........never to be seen again. - Both parties claim landslide victory over other party. - Life goes on as usual until next crisis. |
I'm bemused that no one mentioned that the decision they are fighting against is optional retirement at 65 (i.e. both cabin crew and pilots can retire latter if they so wish but the current retirement rules, procedures and compensation are still in place).
One might object that it's a step towards eventually changing the retirement age but at this stage there is no such proposal. And there is a strong minority of pilots who is very much pleased by this new regulation. FWIW |
is it not a european law ? anti age discrimination law?
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I'm bemused that no one mentioned that the decision they are fighting against is optional retirement at 65 (i.e. both cabin crew and pilots can retire latter if they so wish but the current retirement rules, procedures and compensation are still in place). One might object that it's a step towards eventually changing the retirement age but at this stage there is no such proposal. And there is a strong minority of pilots who is very much pleased by this new regulation In a normal country, all this should have taken place over a reasonably long period of time to allow some form of peace and reason. In France, it had to happen during the summer when no one is watching hoping that it'll do the trick. Well, it doesn't by all account. Air France chairman was on radion trying to explain something that is totally out of his hands. Here is a clear case of a minority poking the snake pitt with a stick and reaping out the benefits looking like a bunch of f.....g angels. Beauty :=:ugh: |
is it not a european law ? anti age discrimination law? Judges had safety concerns as main argument. Funny, Sub-Companies of LH like Ctyline and LH-Cargo don't have the 60-Limit.... :ugh: |
Quote: Air France striking over retirement age ? No surprise there considering the fat retirement package that comes with the old world pay and conditions they enjoy in their protected environment. Who would want to continue beyond 60 ? Autobrake3, You seem to know something I don't. A fat retirement package ??? I wished !!! it is nothing but a laugh. More than 80 % of AF pilots voted against retirement beyhond 60 almost 2 years ago. A very small but extremely active group of pilots called PNT65 ( in and outside AF ) with their own agenda ( like fourth wive, alemonied to their ears or no life ) lobbied (very effectively I have to say,) while SNPL was embroiled in its usual constant and useless bickering with, crowning moment, the recently elected chairman handing out his resignation at the beginning of summer after only a few weeks in office, leaving a huge void that was never filled. The " PNT 65" group had a field day lobbying parliament with no one challenging their claims as no election was held until " La rentrée " or end of summer holliday. If you've not lived a typical french " rentrée " then you've missed out on life !! The newly elected board is made of an interesting mix starting with its chairman, clearly in favor of 65, being overruled by his council who just voted the strike. This is the very man we will see on TV explaining, serious as a heart attack, why the pilots are on srike. Don't say a word.............I know !!! Now as to the reasons of the strike : Back a couple of weeks ago, in the middle of the night, the french parliament voted an amendment pushing retirement age to 65 after the Transport Secretary, in a letter dated December 2007, swore the rule would never be changed unless talks were held between the government, the pilots and the airlines. No such talks ever took place. If that isn't back stabbing then what is !!! Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't BA, although the law in the UK says 65 still retires its pilots at 60. KLM at 56 and Lufthansa at...... 56 when the law in Germany says 67 ??? The french law doesn't allow AF to have its own collective agreement to by pass that bill. This would be regarded as discrimination. Hence the strike being the only way to try to oppose this bill. Air France would have signed such an agreement with both hands, there would have been no strike and exept for a hanfull, everybody would have walked out happy. They never showed any interest in having pilots over 60 and always very clearly said it. As an employer, they can only stick to the law. They are clearly being punished for something they haven't done and were never interested in having in the first place. Young F/O's are pissed as hell and it doesn' really matter wether senior captains strike or not, they won't have a copilot to fly with. It is the worst timing for a strike. I never saw a good one either. Now, I'm sure this forum will be in no shortage of people explaining how very fitt and fantastic they are at 63 and how they prove it 5 times day to their nearest and dearest after a 14 hours night flight; how the french , once again, have lost the plot BUT : All it comes to is , a minority deciding for a clearly decided majority and the Governement lying its toush off ( I know, nothing new ). Unfortunatly, the reaction will me matching the outrage with dire consequences for the airlines and their employees. Quote: Ironically Air France as an employer benefits if older and more expensive pilots are forced to retire at 60 or earlier. This was after all the reason age 60 was sponsored by the large american airlines in the early days. Precisely my point. Short notice ?? In this case they were given 3 weeks notice. Hardly rushed wouldn't you say ?? No airline in its right mind is going to herald a strike 3 weeks in advance facing the very real risk to see booking cancelations by the thousands. In the newt few days, the governement will come out looking as innocent as a virgin claiming they were offering all kind of sweeteners, which will probably be right. The idea the french have of negociating goes as follow : -" I am going to screw you big time " -People clearly not relishing the prospect -People stop working disrupting other people's life which isn't exactly a picnic right now. - Governement says again " I am going to screw you even harder than originally planned. - People even more cranky disrupt even more by which time hoodle of money has been wasted. - When governement assesses situation as having reached its " bargaining point " agrees to give all it was prepared to give from the start. - People walk away with everything they were ready to accept from the start. - Strike takes place anyway as airlines have already canceled flights and passengers gone to other airlines........never to be seen again. - Both parties claim landslide victory over other party. - Life goes on as usual until next crisis. But the French know best and refuse to listen, especially directives that come from the EU (they pick and choose what they want the EU to be, as long as it is in their favour). After living there for 6 years and going back home, I can't say I miss the inefficiency, refusal to listen, strike-a-day mentality of french workers but it is mostly the refusal, nay, active resistance to change that they show. Quite sad actually... And not directed to the poster I quoted But Capitalizing Every First Letter Of Your Words Is Incredibly Annoying And Useless... Tabarnak do they need a kick in the ass... |
And apart from venting might I be as bold as asking.............what the f...k is your point regarding this particular topic ???
Yeah mate, rue St Catherine looks real slick for sure !!! :ugh: The economy has been going up for 15 years globally and the situation in France has stayed static since the early 90's. Can you imagine what a global recession will do them? - Subprimes - Ninja loans - Trillions of $ and CAN $ of credit card debt. debtors unable to pay principal. - 8 millions home reposession to take place in the US in 2009 alone - Thousands of jobs lost in the financial industry alone, more to come elsewhere. - Retail industry about to go tits up - Xmas won't be all that merry and jolly The economy has been going up for 15 years :}......................and came down with a very loud thudddddddddddddddddddddddddddd !!!! |
Quote
A four-day pilots' strike, starting tomorrow, will ground at least half Air France flights. No sign of anything in R&N, nor in Airlines & Airports, nor in the French forum. Reply Probably because about 90% of us are not french = So it doesn't affect us. |
Yes I really like where I live.
And at least my name is not Dover, Ben Dover... |
The news is that the French government has the intention to skip the 60 years age limit in JAR-FCL-3 for the French pilots in 2010.
Air France pilots are highly dependant on the French state pension scheme. The state pension is not going to pay any pilot at age 60 when they are legally allowed to fly until age 65. Don't you think that's a worthy case for a 4-day strike? Their blue Dutch company still has age 56 as retirement age (and they intend to keep it that way), but these guys have a well funded pension scheme and are independent of state pension schemes. The gap between the French and Dutch is going to widen more... |
I dont know why people wish to fly till they are 65...? 60 is already too old for me if I was to have it my way I would retire at 50...
Bring on retirement especially after the way aviation has changed since 9/11... |
I agree 'Springbok' To be honest some of might not even make '50' at this Economical rate.
So to reach 65 or whatever may be a thing of the past?? I don't know how it can still be enjoyable after 40 + years?? |
Does the whole possibility-of-retiring-at-65 thing have something to do with the fact that the french pension fund for pilots and cabin crew (CRPN) is desparately short of cash? The number of retirees is steadily growing since people retire very early while the number of people working sort of remains constant. The french government has been introducing all kinds of measures to stop the bleeding (like forcing foreign airlines to employ their personnel based in France under french contracts, paying into the CRPN), raising the retirement age is another one.
Any thoughts? |
German courts vs. EU Law
Can anyone explain to me what better knowledge a court has over the tens of thousands of hours of research by industry related medical experts and other parties (german ones included) that spent years checking the safety and viability of the 65 age rule. Sounds a bit like another country using the " lets make a rule, ignore it but make sure its enforced elswhere". The EU gets less democratic & more third world..... again....
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Air France pilots are highly dependant on the French state pension scheme. The state pension is not going to pay any pilot at age 60 when they are legally allowed to fly until age 65. Don't you think that's a worthy case for a 4-day strike? Their blue Dutch company still has age 56 as retirement age (and they intend to keep it that way), but these guys have a well funded pension scheme and are independent of state pension schemes. The gap between the French and Dutch is going to widen more... Check your facts. |
Skyloone,
It's not only about better knowledge, it's a rules game. The EU sets a framework, individual countries can be more restrictive if they want. Don't know how it is in Germany in particular, but in Holland a certain group of workers (within a certain trade, profession or company) can agree on a collective labour agreement with their employer that is more restrictive with regards to retirement age. One can legally work until 65 as a pilot, but KLM pilots have negotiated a retirement age of 56. The collective labour agreement is co-signed by the government, once the government is satisfied that enough money is being paid into the pension fund by pilots and their employer. The possibility of retiring at 65 is not an obligation to do so! The only binding rule is that you cannot work as an airline pilot after 65. Quite a lot of KLM-retirees go on working for other companies either because they think it's fun or to pay for their third alimony... :} |
If the motivation for the strike is that people in Air France will ultimately be forced to work to 65 by the pension rules as Rageye says, then I can understand a bit better what this is about.
I know this issue has led to strikes in the railways in France. Is this really the issue? As an aside there is nothing unusual about laws being passed in the middle of the night. I don't think that is a relevant objection. On the other hand if people can work until 65 if they want to but are not forced to, then I cannot see there will be much sympathy. |
Can anyone explain to me what better knowledge a court has over the tens of thousands of hours of research by industry related medical experts and other parties (german ones included) that spent years checking the safety and viability of the 65 age rule. Sounds a bit like another country using the " lets make a rule, ignore it but make sure its enforced elswhere". The EU gets less democratic & more third world..... again.... It's not a matter of safety, it's obviously a matter of unions/polticians/companies. |
Originally Posted by Me Myself
I am baffled at how ill informed you are. French pilots have their own pension fund called CRPNAC standing for Caissse de retraite du Personnel de l'Aviation Civile, which also includes cabin crew who in their wisdom leave at .........55. In short, french pilots, who retire at 60, subsidize cabin crew early retirement. For years the french governement has tried to merge it with the general pension system; Why ??? Because there's a lot of money in it which they'd like to lay their greedy hands on.
Check your facts. Today 21:42 CRPN isn't short of cash (for now), and it isn't a state pension. It is a very complicated matter, and contributors would be well advised not to jump to conclusions. |
The possibility of retiring at 65 is not an obligation to do so! The only binding rule is that you cannot work as an airline pilot after 65. And that is what is going to happen in France if they don't fight back. I see a lot of complaints from our british colleagues, but the rest of the world is not to blame if you let your T & C's go down the toilet. Check Six, Krueger...:ok: |
CRPN might not be very short of cash now (last thing I heard was minus 93 million euro this year), but they will be in the very near future. This situation is not unique for France, since most of the pension funds overthere will drown due to the ageing population (as will their social security and healthcare systems).
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And apart from venting might I be as bold as asking.............what the f...k is your point regarding this particular topic ??? Yeah mate, rue St Catherine looks real slick for sure !!! I will take the Canadian economy any day of the week over the French one so don't really understand your swipe at Montreal's main street, although if you are French I could understand if it doesn't meet your aesthetic standards of Parisian beauty... And all the stuff you listed (while I agree that Canada will be affected as much as anyone else, 15 years of government surpluses give you maneuvering room that France doesn't have) is US-centric. You do know that Canada is a separate country right? So French pilots oblivious to pissing off customers due to internal hissy fits and jealousy really doesn't get my sympathy when I am stuck in the worst airport in Europe, CDG, for hours while they play their little games. Clear enough for ya? Now where is that diagram... |
As an aside there is nothing unusual about laws being passed in the middle of the night. I don't think that is a relevant objection. On the other hand if people can work until 65 if they want to but are not forced to, then I cannot see there will be much sympathy. The amendment requilified all this as you would guess as it would have been regarded as a volontary dismissal. All of sudden, because of a very small group, you find yourself having to pay taxes to allow a handfull of guys to carry on til 65 !! Sorry, it's just not on, even if we're not " forced " to carry on til 65. From what I heard, offers were made at the last minute to guaranty that nothing would be changed for those chosing to leave at 60. Unfortunatly, this came too late. Even if pilots were showing up for work tommorrow, half the flights have been canceled anyway. This charade is the whole french government and its croonies responsability. AF had nothing to do with it. There is a solution to this : 1/ Get a life 2/ Stay married to the same woman Retirement age for other people was pushed to 70 , on a volontary basis !!! . Do you think people want to work to such a ridiculous age ??? More than 70 % of the poulation is opposed to this. We should now believe, after decades of social progress that work is " fun " and that we should carry on working instead of travelling and enjoying what's left of life after 30 + years or sometimes much more on a job. Trillions have been pumped into financial institutions but when it comes to people you're told to work til 70 ??? This is just a bloody farce. |
So French pilots oblivious to pissing off customers due to internal hissy fits and jealousy really doesn't get my sympathy when I am stuck in the worst airport in Europe, CDG, for hours while they play their little games. Clear enough for ya? John Howard is free, just been recently sacked if you're interested in poor social relationships. |
French Strikes this week-end.
Just to add my two pence worth; the trains are also on strike in France on Friday so it will be pretty difficult getting around in France on public transport.
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Don't I recall an AF pilots threat to strike a little while ago when the authorities tried to bring in "English only" in French airspace/airport environments!
And, believe it or not, whilst I was there, based in Paris, operating for AAI under an AF contract, just before 9/11 I believe, our two 747 Classics were painted all white (as they normally are on short term contracts), and AF maintenance was organizing to get both their tails (only) painted in AF colours, since the contract looked like going on for some time. Amazingly, the AF pilots threatened to go on strike if the AAI airplanes were painted in AF colours. We were surprised, though it didn't concern us either way, but it was the point of many jokes about AF pilots after that! ..things one remembers... Cheers...FD...:) |
Airfrance pilots typical:
That the ones who "invited the air molecules",one of the best paid pilots,for sure the ones who worked the less so it is completely unacceptable that they work after the age of 60,of course.
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MeMyself wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't BA, although the law in the UK says 65 still retires its pilots at 60. BA allows the option for pilots to work to 65, to force retirement at 60 would be against the law. Not that the laws seem to bother the French:rolleyes: |
Myself being French (me) but not working for AF, I do not particularly want to work until 65 BUT I want to have the option to. Believe it or not, some people really enjoy flying, turning up for work in a nice place, with nice colleagues, all that at the beginning of a great day (I enjoy the days off spent on my boat too). Ok it may not be that common on airliners but that as nothing to do with age, it's just something I have found boring already in my 30s. So being forced to retire or to continue is against my idea of a modern society.
I see nothing wrong for the individual to decide what suits him best and AF guys get my support only if they are not forcing something onto the unwilling to "agree". I thought the "Ben Dover" joke from Sud747 was very funny :)... |
Can anyone tell me if KLM out of Amsterdam are also going to be on strike for the next 4 days?
thanks |
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